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sausagemahoney77
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Name: Sausage Mahoney
Gender: Male
Interests: Dominating ignorant, pathetic fools.
Expertise: Being awesome.
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Member Since:
10/9/2005
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| Alright, now I've already examined how "God's will is always to be done" and "Prayers are answered" are mutually exclusive instances. If you're curious, that's in my last post. But, because I'm so nice, I'll highlight the main part of that.
Let's examine this.
Let's say that X is God's will, and that Y is an opposing occurrence. X
and Y are mutually exclusive.
I pray for Y: X happens.
Or
I pray that X does not happen: X happens
Now, why does this happen?
Because we've been told that God acts according to His will, and that we
cannot sway His will.
I pray for X: X happens.
Or
I pray that Y does not happen: X happens
Why did X happen? Not
because I prayed for it. It happened
because it was in God's will to happen.
Now, if it's God's will that does everything, prayer doesn't
work anyways, because then it's just a coincidence that you are praying for
something to happen that has been pre-determined to happen by God's will.
Therefore, if God's will dictates all things that happen, prayer again does not
work as nothing will ever go against God's will and your prayers just
coincidentally line up with his plan.
This is in contradiction to the Bible. The Bible does not
say
"For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed,
you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it might move if
God decides that it's in His plan; there will always be things that are
impossible to you."
It says
"For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed,
you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and
nothing will be impossible to you." (Matthew 17:20) -------------------------------
Now, to tie up the loose ends from the last post.
To Lord of Rogues:
“but can i ask you to entertain the idea that perhaps prayer
is not a one-way conversation? that prayer is in fact a two-way conversation,
thus any number of possible "replies" to both questions and
statements can take place? the problem is, i think we oft forget to take the
time to converse, and merely spill out our requests. as paul said, pray
continously.”
Hey, it’s not my idea we’re following here. I’m not the one that said:
“Ask, and
it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to
you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who
knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread,
will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If
you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much
more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask
him!“(Matthew 7:7)
or
“For truly,
I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to
this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be
impossible to you.” (Matthew 17:20)
I’m just
adhering to your Bible.
------------------------------------------------------------
To
puttingcomputers:
“hmm interesting!!
tell me this how do explain my sister being a miracle baby!
my mom lost a lot of babies due to complications. My mom started having the
same trouble with my sis. In fact my mom was flat on her back in bed and was
praying that God would help her out! IMMEDIATLY GOD TOLD HER TO "RISE UP
AND WALK." SHE DID and ALL COMPLICATIONS STOPPED IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!
Another story-
My parents had left the mennonite church when I was young. My dad left my
mom 12 years later. Mom started returning back to the mennonites! Then she
asked God to send us to a certain area to live also that our new home would be
near my grandparents and would be cheap to rent and that it would happen soon!
ALL 4 Requests happened in the next week!!!!!!!! My grandfather became to diffucult
for my grandmother to help him, he was 93 and big and she was very
short at the time, so they moved to my aunts house just up the road! My
mom WAS ASKED to come live in their old house and THEY NEVER KNEW ABOUT MY MOMS
PRAYER!!!!!!!!!!! WE STILL RENT THIS HOUSE FOR 200 DOLLARS A MONTH 4 YEARS
LATER!!!!!!
Something else that has happened NUMEROUS TIMES!
I used to be VERY VERY OVERWEIGHT. And had to mow this BIG HILL in the
middle of summer when it was VERY HOT WITH NO WIND AND NO CLOUDS IN THE SKY!
Now I would get OVERHEATED rather Quickly along WITH ASTHMA! When I
would feel overheated I would ask God for a COOL BREEZE TO COOL ME
DOWN! EVERY SINGLE TIME GOD ANSWERED WITH A COOL BREEZE THAT LASTED
THE ENTIRE JOB IMMEDIATLY AFTER I PRAYED!!!!!!!! SOMETIMES A QUITE STRONG WIND
WOULD POP UP!!!!! Remember NOT ONE BLADE OF GRASS WAS MOVING BEFORE I
PRAYED!!!!!
This is why I disagree with you so vehemently! Time after time God has
answered a prayer in my life! In fact God may be answering one right now! I
just came back from Bible School
and while there I asked God to give a better Job! The second day back I find
out while at church that one of the missionarys from our church that has been
in guatemala is
coming back to the states! Then I find out that he starting his own Mason
Crew!!!!!
NOW HOW CAN THESE ALL BE MERE COINCIDENTS!!!!!!”
Alright, first of all, I think you have quite the active imagination. “Not one blade of grass was moving before I
prayed!!” Well, generally that’s how
things work in the summer. The air is
deathly still, and out of nowhere a cool gust pops up. Where do you live, because this happens all
the time in the Midwest.
It’s not a miracle, it’s weather.
Secondly, you really need to lay off the caps lock. It makes you look like a child screaming.
And finally, you quite obviously did not understand that point of my
post. What it says is that, as you’ve
all told me, God’s will will always be done, and nothing can change that. Which means that it was in God’s will for the
wind to blow, it was in God’s will for you to get a house, it was in God’s will
for your sister to be born, and nothing would have made Him deviate from that
will, and since it was in His will already, your prayers were not answered,
they just coincidentally lined up with what He had already decided would
happen. Read that several times. It’s not difficult to understand. In fact, neither was the first post. I think you’re in denial.
------------------------------------------
To missomegagrace:
“Neither insulting nor instigative. I meant exactly what I said (with
love & concern). I feel you're blind to the truth of God & that
as such, you need prayer. I'm doing just that. You may not believe
in it, but I do.
And as for feeling you're "inferior", I never said that.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I don't know what a
"hypoChristian" is, but thanks for calling me a Christian. I'll
take that anyday.
I'm not sure why you're combative, but that spirit is not of Christ...that's
why I felt you needed prayer.”
God does not appreciate liars. You
made a point to call me “Poor man” which is a sign of you believing your
superiority over myself, then you said you would pray for me, and you put an
emphasis on the word “pray” because that was the subject we are discussing on
how it does not work, obviously meant to be instigative.
Now, little lady, come clean. You can
sit here and lie about your intentions all you want, you’re damning yourself by
doing so, however. You’re so intent on
telling me that I need help that you’ve revealed yourself to be a hypocrite, a
liar, and a sinner. I suggest you
apologize, lest you end up right beside me in hell, where I can grate on your
nerves for the rest of eternity. And,
I’ll be certain to say “I told you so” a few times as well.
And for the record, you shouldn’t take “hypoChristian” as a compliment. I would hope you’d be intelligent enough, but
it’s a combination of hypocrite and Christian.
It means you’re not a Christian at all, but a failure. You put up a façade saying you’re a
Christian, but you prove that you can’t even follow the teachings of your
messiah when you come out and insult me in the manner you have.
No wonder the Bible says you shouldn’t be allowed to speak in church. You ARE a disgrace. (1 Corinthians chapter 14)
-------------------------------------------
To Sneezy503:
“if u believe u SHALL recieve brother I think your problem is that u havent
began to fully believe and trust in God.......everything happens for a reason
Romans 8:28
you have to truly know God not just think you know him and expect something
to happen u have to love and know HIS WILL SHALL AND WILL BE DONE:)
still God Bless you”
Surely, I have A mustard seed’s worth of faith. I’m told that’s all the belief I need in the
Bible.
"For
truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say
to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will
be impossible to you." (Matthew 17:20)
And,
it seems you didn’t understand the whole point of the post, that if God’s will is
always done regardless, then prayer does not work anyways. X will always be done. It doesn’t matter if you prayer against X or for
X, the outcome will always be X if God’s will is to be done.
And,
you’re right, everything does happen for a reason. The reason that the famine has not been ended in
Africa is because God doesn’t answer prayers. ;)
--------------------------------
To Ramblings_of_a_beggar:
"I've debated with myself on whether or not I should post a comment on
what you have said. Considering that your heart might be hard and you
might not take the time to consider what anyone person that disagrees
with your opinion has to say. But here I go..."
The fact that I make a point to reply to all who leave comments should say enough. Obviously, in order to be able to reply to it, I have to take it into consideration in the first place, or else I wouldn't be understanding of it enough to shoot it down. =P
"I think your understanding of prayer is a little misconstrued."
As if I haven't heard that enough. =P
"Prayer is a means of connection with God on a more formal level such as
meditation would be for other religions and you could even consider
prayer to be meditation. The goal behind prayer is not to obtain wants
or goals but to enjoy intimacy with God. To connect with our creator. Thus prayer is not a waste of time. God
looks into the heart and mind of a man and knows them through that not
by words they spit out.(Romans 8:26) "
Again, you all are trying to stray from the very thing depicted in your own Bible. That if we ask, we receive. I have no doubt that you all find prayer to be a way to be closer to God, and that's all well and good but that does not negate the fact that your Bible also says that God will answer any prayer and grant that which we ask for.
"Consider King David, He was a man after God's own heart, a man of
righteousness. Read most of the Psalms if you havent already and
consider the way he communicates with God.
for example; Psalm 7:8-10; Psalm 139:223-24" Alright, and while I consider that, you consider the fact that your God is a ruthless murderer. In fact, one might say he's a genocidal maniac.
The men of Israel mingle with the women of Midian, who tempt them
to worship Baal. God's about to kill everyone, when Eleazar impales a
man of Israel and his Midianite girlfriend in front of God's tent. God
is appeased, and so only kills 24,000. - Numbers 25:1-9
"Now in prayer most people vent on God and communicate their struggles
or desires or needs or wants. As you said earlier in this post, it
must line up with God's will in order for the prayer to be answered or
for the person praying to see the outcome they desire. That I agree
with. I don't understand God's ways or why He works in the ways He
does but thats not my ultimate concern. My concern is a relationship
with God. "
I don't give a hoot about your relationship with God, that's not what the topic is about. And you've said that you agree with my assertion that God does not answer a prayer that goes against His will. He does only that which is in his will, and nothing can change His will. Thus, His will is to be done no matter what, no matter whether we pray or not. Therefore, prayer is useless as it is mentioned in the Bible.
"As for my response to Matthew 17:20... I think you should read what 21
says. It says "But this kind does not go out except by prayer and
fasting." Now if you look at this as a whole you see that Jesus is
talking about FAITH not PRAYER. Moving the mountain comes by faith
through prayer and fasting not by prayer alone. Prayer isnt the reason
you will be able to move the mountain its only the foundation for
obtaining faith enough to move the mountain."
You silly guy, obviously you didn't pay enough attention to our little experiment on prayer. We had many people of different congregations and religions praying for the famine in Africa to end. There were many people praying in one voice with varying levels of faith and still nothing happened. I tell you what, let's get the pope to sit and pray that Mount St. Helens be moved to Cuba and we'll see how long it takes for it to move. Surely he's got enough faith to do it.
"Now as for receiving what we pray for, that comes down to our hearts
desires being the same as God and His will. If someone who does not
know God or understands His laws and His ways prays for something
against His will its obvious that that persons prayer will not be
answered. That is why in Luke 18:9-14 the sinner who understood the
purpose for prayer went home justified. Lets look at another text.
Consider "The Lord's Prayer" in Matthew 6:9-13. There is not one
sentence in there nor in the Bible that says pray and God will give to
you that which you pray for. In Psalm 37:4 it says "Delight yourself
in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart." But know
that God will not satisfy your desires that are corrupt, perverse, and
against His will. In order for prayers to be "answered" you just need
to follow God's ways and delight in them. Because then your heart and
desires will change as you begin to see God more and to understand Him
better. "
If the only reason your prayers get "answered" is because you prayed for something that's in God's will, then your prayers weren't answered, because God's will is done regardless.
Try to pay attention, silly.
--------------------------
To razzendahcuban:
"Ah, a follower of Descartes"
I'm a follower of many things, most of of them grounded in fact and logic. The Bible does not fall into this realm.
"How did you ever come to believe that "real" answered prayer (in other
words, prayer that "works") doesn't correspond to God's will? Where did
you get these premises?"
Alright, unless you understand what I'm saying, don't bother to question me, because you all just end up looking ridiculous.
If God acts only on His will, then His will is to be done regardless of whether or not anyone prays for or against it. If you pray against something in His will, His will will be done. If you pray for something in His will, His will will be done. Prayer makes no difference, therefore an "answered" prayer is just one that coincidentally lines up with what was predetermined to happen as put forth by God's will.
"Life is a test of character? From whence does this premise come?
Intelligent beings find the answer themselves? From whence does premise come?
Your entire line of argumentation is built off of totally unsubstantiated premises."
I said flat out that is was my own personal belief.
"As for MYSELF, I just don't BELIEVE in the Bible and I don't BELIEVE that any prayers are answered, because life is a test of
character, and if we can get the answers, we'll never find them for
ourselves and progress as intelligent beings."
And, having one sentence of my own personal beliefs stand out as being built off "totally unsubstantiated premises" (of which I can assure you, they are not) is far better than to have an entire religion built of a book chock full of them. =)
"Moving down, you seem have a big problem with God's fore-ordination of
sin and its consequences. You are correct, unlike some here, in saying
that God does know everything and He does cause everything."
I don't God knows everything. And I don't believe He is the cause of everything. Really, I dont' know where you came up with the assumption that I believe this. And really, any person of sound mind should be able to understand this. Because if God knows EVERYTHING, then he knows what we will do before we do it, which negates free will. Personally, I think God's caught just as much off guard as the rest of us when something happens.
"PM me if you want to talk about that more."
Any discussion of the topics at hand on this site are to be brought forth publicly. I have an audience to keep happy.
-----------------------------------------
To The_Speed_of_Light_Knight:
"ill admit... i did not read this whole entry (my apologies)
i'm sure you'll understand, lol."
Generally, this leads to problems with the people who reply to me. If you don't take the time to fully educate yourself, you shouldn't expect to make much of an argument.
"just one thing i wanted to pick at, in terms of logic -
you said:
"But as I've said many times, for a being that is truly omniscient, God
would have known eons before their births that these millions of people
would be born only to suffer and die tragically. And, in a sense that
means that God created them specifically to die. And it's for that
reason why I don't believe in a truly omniscient higher power.""
Yes, I did indeed say that. There is no flaw in that logic. If he is all-knowing, he knew eons ago that they would be born only to die. And, I did make one mis-step, that's not the only reason I don't believe in an omniscient higher power. It's only the half of it. The other reason is because omniscience rules out free will.
"i think that is one possible explanation - that the problem of pain and
suffering might lead you to believe there is no truly omniscient power.
however, in this situation, if he is truly omniscient, then what if
he knows things that you or i don't know that somehow make suffering
and tragic deaths WORTH it?
that is what keeps me going - that
even though i am surrounded by pain i dont always understand, i know
someday somehow, this will be worth it.
it is kind of difficult to
judge the motives of an omniscient being b/c he'll always have that on
us - he's all-knowing and we are not. so any kind of formulated theory
about his motives will always be limited. and will be always missing
something.
THUS...
it is fruitless either way to use this in argument - that it doesn't prove or disprove anything just b/c there is suffering.
maybe God believes a greater good can come thru this suffering?
maybe it really does mean there is no all-knowing God?
maybe it proves man's freewill?
or maybe it doesn't really prove anything at all."
Ah, yes, God is responsible for the brutal suffering and deaths of millions because somehow he's MIGHT make it all worthwhile. What a wonderful basis for a belief system. It's no wonder Christianity led to the stagnation of progress and general stupidity of the Dark Ages.
"they are all possible and logical explanations - the difference is the varying metaphysical assumptions.
to base an entire perspective on the problem of pain is somewhat of a thin shred of evidence.
i can think of many other and better reasons to disbelieve -"
Oh, there are plenty of reasons to disbelieve. There are plenty of flaws and contradictions in the Bible. There are plenty of instances of bigotry, sexism, ignorance, and brutal murder in the Bible. Stick around and you might learn something, junior.
"but to base it off an argument that assumes we can truly understand an omniscient God? that, i believe, is illogical."
To base an entire religion on the idea of "I don't understand what's going on, but rather than seek an answer through investigation, I choose to adhere to a book written thousands of years ago full of flaws" is highly illogical. Literally every time someone brings up a problem with your religion the answer is "You're taking it out of context!" or "God knows better than us, we can't understand him!" Well, for a being that is supposedly all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfect, you'd think he'd have the sense to at least pass down a sensible piece of writing to humanity that didn't leave so many holes and contradictions in it.
"i think in a case like this, your conclusion is a foregone one that is predetermined by your worldview.
a non-believer will always come to the same conclusion, and a believer will always come to the same opposite conclusion.
all b/c of their previously made assumptions about life, and pain/suffering/death."
A believer will not always come to the same conclusion, not unless you're completely brainwashed. I was a believer myself once. But I started to look at other options, and because I wasn't a close-minded twit I was able to find some real truths to life, ones that can't be found in the Bible.
---------------------------------
To yea_mon:
"I thought you might want to listen to this it is an awesome example of
what God has done for each one of us. All i ask is for you to listen
and think about what is being said! Thanks http://onefather.com/audio/EnglishFLL.mp3"
That was literally the most ridiculous thing I've heard. All it does is restate the same things we've brought into question here, with music in the background. You've brought nothing new, you've wasted my time.
--------------------------------------------
To Zebra_Slut:
"I like your line of reasoning, as it is clear and concise and makes
perfect sense. As for a lot of the other people on here, you are
tilting at their windmills, going after their prayer belief. The
lengths that theists will go to defend what they believe is phenomenal.
The circular logic they use is classic, and again makes me realize why
I like listening to apologetics talk, although if what my mom told me
when I was a child is true, my eyes are going to stick that way. Yeah,
xtian apologetics make me roll my eyes a lot."
Yeah, I try to use the most basic reasoning I can, unfortunately, logic and Christianity are often diametrically opposed. =P
At the very least it can be amusing to read.
"Keep it up and hopefully all these people praying for you will coincide
with God's will, and you will finally win the lottery. You could use
the money to help feed those people starving in Africa, because
those unfortunate folks sure as frik can't eat prayers. "
Haha, if only.
----------------------------------
To puttincomputers:
"you may be amazed at this but I believe witchcraft is real! in fact
when you do witch craft you are praying to satan, right??!!!!!! now if
you believe satan "answers prayer" why not believe that God, who
created the devil by the way, is greater than satan in that department!
in fact you may not realize this but a prayer to God affects everyone
even the non christian! but a prayer to satan against a christian does
not work because God protects his children, which satan cannot claim
for even his own followers!"
As NeonWater said: "Witchcraft/Wicca and Satanism (in either variety) are completely unrelated. No devil in wicca, therefor no praying to Satan."
And, only one form of Satanism actually believes in the Satan as a deity, so the other form can't pray to Satan either.
Additionally, since we've already covered the fact that prayers themselves are not answered anyways, you're just bringing up a dead issue in saying that prayers to God affect everyone. The prayers do nothing, God's will does everything. Pay attention.
----------------------------------------------
To yea_mon:
"Well i have to disagree with you on this! First off since God created
everything (which i believe stronger then you do about your sinful
witchcraft) then that means He has power that no human or spirit or any
other form can even imagine!"
And yet he refuses to use that power when scores of people of differing beliefs band together for the common good. =O
-----------------------------------------------
To A39587164995846777
"OMG, I have never seen this much interest in a single post."
I have a gift. =P
"No doubt saus is preparing a HUENORMOUS reply, so everyone be prepared.
I would hope that you all keep a clear head about you, it seems to be
heating up in here. Remember, no one's in here to change their opinion,
so don't be surprised when the argument never finishes. Don't make the
mistake of letting emotions get in the way. State you opinions and make
sure that you don't make a fool out of yourselves by insulting or
assuming much of anything about one another. Last time that happened I
got a little sad because my arguments were going nowhere with anyone,
but guess what, that was no big surpirse. Remember also yea mon, they
might actually believe stronger than you, but that's not the point. The
truth is the answer and when people believe they've found it, then
we're all on the same playing field. Don't think for one minute that
argument works, give the facts and work with that. That argument didn't
even work in junior high (no offense). Feelings are not the standard,
how can you say that when you don't know what or how strong they
believe? Anyway, before I go off and preach, just remember that no
matter how mislead you think the other person is, they're probably not
here to change their mind. Laying out the facts, drawing up
conclusions, and finding the lines of the beliefs of others is the
point of this and nothing more will be accomplished out of it."
Thanks a bunch, massive respect to you, sir.
-----------------------------------------------------
To mandalee91:
"To say prayer does not 'work' is a bit of a mistatement because it's
not just a power to tap into whenever we need or want something - or
shouldn't be. it's communication with your creator who desires a
father/child relationship with you. It may be our tendency to say
answered prayers are coincidence."
Pay attention. You obviously did not understand what was said in the first post. God's will is to be done no matter what, nothing can change that. If a prayer is not "answered" then it's because it's not in God's will. So, if a prayer is "answered" it means that it was to be done regardless because it was in God's will, not because a prayer was offered up.
And, the Bible itself states that prayer is a power to be tapped into when it says that we can move a mountain with the power of prayer.
"But I wonder why it is that we believe God is supposed to be good and
then we blame Him for the evil and just say the good happened to
happen. I'm not trying to point fingers here; just asking a question."
Actually, we (actually, you all) don't believe that anymore. The men who wrote your Bible realized how silly it was to say that a supposedly benevolent deity was responsible for all things, because that includes all things evil as well. So, they created Satan as a scapegoat for all things evil to keep God in the clear. When, in actuality, if God were truly omniscient, he knew well ahead of time that he would be betrayed and that Satan would offer temptation and evil to people. And despite knowing this eons ahead of time, he allowed it to happen anyways. So, therefore, God is still responsible for all evil by allowing Satan to exist.
"I don't know why God didn't answer your prayer about the famine in Africa."
And there's the real answer. ;)
But, that still begs the question as to why the Bible tells us that all prayers will be answered if all prayers are not answered. It tells us right off the bat that the Bible is not accurate.
"While I do believe God can say "no" he also might answer your prayer in
a greater and better way then if he just ended starving by a certain
date. And He doesn't just reach down and remove horrible circumstances
from the earth that would restrict our free will. God has the right to
just step back and say "you got yourselves into this sin; you can
suffer the consequences" but he doesn't. Instead of that or restricting
our freedom; He came to earth and shared our pain to the fullest
extent. That's the kind of God I want; one who can share my joy and
pain. And pain forms our character. Someday, I will look back and thank
Him for pain because it made me who I am. I shouldn't critisise God for
the way He does things, or how He allows some suffering; because I
don't know how things will end. He does. "
However, God has had no problem with dealing with "sinners" in the past. He murdered thousands of people in Numbers alone for their sins. He flooded the whole earth to deal with sinners. He leaves plenty of orders in the old testament about what particular sinners we should kill. But when asked to spare innocent people, we get nothing. We stood specifically on the lines of the Bible. It never said we couldn't put a time constraint on the prayer. It said that any prayer is answered, and that was our prayer, and it wasn't answered.
And still, God knowing how "all things will end" negates our supposed free will.
------------------------------------------
To taynay:
"I think that i might have a good [Christian] explaination for the predestination confusion/controversy.
If anyone would like to hear my opinion/discuss it with me, you can correspond through email:
taynay(underscore)c130(at)yahoo(dot)com
i don't really want to get sucked into this festival of insults, so if you decide to email, please do so with courtesy.
Thanks!!!" If you think you have a good answer, you should share it with all of us. I can assure you no insults will be sent your way (at least not from our camp) as long as no insults come from you.
-----------------------------------
To puttincomputers:
"Where did the first human come from?"
The first "homo sapien" appeared somewhere between 200,000 and 300,000 years ago. Very similar to it's predecessor homo erectus, but it had more fragile facial features, such as a smaller jaw and teeth. And it had a larger brain capacity (1,350 cc).
Prior to homo erectus, there was homo habilis. And prior to that we had the lineage of Australopithecus.
And, let me inform you of one of the biggest misconceptions of anthropology. Humans did not evolve from monkeys. Humans and monkeys split off from a common ancestor ages ago and evolved side by side to adapt for different lifestyles.
Another misconception of anthropology is that there is some end goal to evolution. Evolution is a product of random traits that allow for more success within a specific gene pool for that specific time. Hence why the with and black moths in England went back and forth during the industrial revolution. It is merely the survival and the passing of the genes that are most useful to survival.
Finally, there are not jumps in evolution. The changes that occur are smooth arcs over a long period of time. Generally speaking, the last of one species (homo habilis) is similar enough to the first of the next species (homo erectus) that they could not be told apart (at least not without extensive study). It is our human need for organization that leads us to split them into groups with different names. Over time, the differences become abundantly clear, but at the time of the "noted" change, there is not much difference. So these are not just entirely new species springing up overnight, but rather a gradual shift to these traits.
Take some time to study anthropology, it's useful knowledge.
"okay neon if we come from a pimate looking animal where did that animal come from?
if all human life comes from a single cell, WOW That requires a lot of faith, then where did that cell come from?"
Life itself crawled up from the primordial ooze in which the building blocks of life (amino acids) were put together. Stanley Miller even recreated this in an experiment, in which the foundations of life were able to form under primordial conditions. Once live form, slowly but surely evolution occurred as the life that form spread out and made their own niches, therefore creating necessary traits to pass down in their genes.
And, don't forget that we can actually observe evolution as it's happening. Of course, because of the amount of time it takes for evolution to occur (which is why it helps that the earth is being of years old) means that we have to observe it in life forms that go through many generations of life in a short amount of time, i.e. viruses. That's why the flu virus is still out and about getting people sick. Because the viruses that are immune to our medicines are the ones that survive to pass on their genes, thus creating more of the virus with that immunity. And eventually, after so many generations, the most prevalent flu virus about is the one that's immune to our medicine because of that slight difference that was passed down through generations. Thus, natural selection/evolution has occurred, we have a new strain of the flu virus going around, and people are still getting sick.
------------------------------------------
To Lonely_Monk:
"I hope I'm not messing up your structure ... I am having a little
trouble keeping up with your system due to the many comments. Please
feel free to put this where it belongs."
A good rule of thumb is to just always put your replies on my most recent main post.
"No I can only agree with you - it is my feeling that this is the place
that any doctrine, be it religious, political or philosophical goes
wrong. A philosphy that is accepted at face value with no effort
exerted to critically evaluate its postulates is in my opinion
dangerous. I am afraid it is this very fact that frightens and
threatens some Christians when confronted with someone like yourself,
i.e. there's not enough substance behind the belief system and they
cannot stand up to scrutiny. The Bible tells us that we need to be
ready to give an account for our faith, i.e. no what we believe and why
we believe it and be able to defend it, rather than become defensive."
Bingo. And that's why we come together here. We're putting things to the test. Obviously, we've got some that can't handle the questioning and stoop to insults, in opposition to their supposed beliefs. But with others, we actually get a chance to discuss things and really think about the beliefs.
"What is the higher power you believe in? By the way I also ascribe to
the sciences, I don't think the Bible and the Science is neccesarily
mutually exclusive, however they do have very different approaches to
the observable and unobservable in our world. The Bible - Faith, and
Science - conclusions based on physical evidence and observation."
I just believe in a higher power that watches over us all. With no real function other than to watch the way things play out, as though it were a television show. And, to be honest, with all the wackos running around down here, I'm sure he gets quite a chuckle out of it.
And, in a few key instances, the Bible and Science are mutually exclusive. Such as the keystone of your religion, creation. Science shows us where we came from, and we certainly we're just plopped onto earth by some invisible man in the sky. We have mountains of fossils to show that.
"I'm not sure myself about some of the implications of an omniscient God
- I mean, if God already knows everything then why not just end it all
and take those to heaven who are going to serve him and leave the
others to their destiny. I agree that's a hard one sometimes. Regarding
however, why or what people choose to do with their lives and why God
would let them be born only to die, I think there is also another
aspect and that is the one of "the sins of their fathers". I tend to
see the whole thing with God in a simplistic way sort of like, what God
is can't be too far from what he created. We as humans like to put into
motion things that are economical, i.e. we would like a system that is
fairly low maintenance. I sometimes think that the desire for economy
comes from God, i.e. he created and put into motion a system, which
obeys certain physical laws. He then created man and gave him a set of
instructions and an inner compass, or guide if you will. I mean of
course concience and just common sense and a basic sense of decency.
The I think God is able to step back and say, this is my handiwork,
here are the rules and here are the players. Let's see what they choose
to do with it and in particular cases those who exert the effort reach
out to God for more will get a response. It may be a cop out, or a
little simplistic but some would say that God chooses not to know. The
fact that humans have free will would in some way imply that God has
not predetermined, or it is not predetermined what a man will choose. I
hope you get the gist of what I'm trying to say"
That didn't seem to answer the issue. If God is all knowing, then he knows every little detail before it happens. Therefore, we don't have free will because he knows what will happen before we do it, it is predestined to happen. If he KNOWS, then it's already a certainty to happen, so we have no choice in the matter.
"I think you hit on a really key issue because as I said somewhere else,
we are all human and we all have a lot in common on that single merit.
That I could not respect your opinion because it is different is the
oppitomy of arrogance, given the fact that I have no idea where you
might be coming from or what has contributed to shaping your current
views or values. Frankly I don't think it is important that we agree
but it is important that we can dialogue about those things where we do
agree. Otherwise, what's the point of speaking at all - I don't like
"yes men", I want my kids and those around me to be critical thinkers,
challenge "truths" and ask questions. It's the only way to grow in
whatever intellectual pursuit one pursues."
Personally, I think religion should be something that brings people together in a civil manner. Unfortunately, what it's turned into is a means to deem others as inferior to yourself by saying "I'm saved, you're not. I've achieved a truth that you haven't so I must teach you because you are ignorant." Rather than allowing others to being understanding and tolerant of others, it's become so inflexible that you all ending up damning and insulting others. And that's where people like myself come in, to shake those very foundations and expose these issues for what the really are. To get people thinking.
"I'm not sure I am sold on denominations ... I tend to be a little bit
of a free-willy. I am currently attending a Baptist church, not because
it's Baptist but rather because the approach is more intellectual with
this particular group of folks, and they just happen to be Baptist. I
grew up in a very traditional environment where a lot of emphasis was
put on the periferals and stuff that was mostly tradition
based as opposed to the core of the gospel. I think we spend a lot of
time on non-essentials when it comes to Christianity and that saddens
me because I think the "world" can see through that kind of stuff
pretty easily."
Yep, things are built upon tradition. Especially the traditions of others. The traditions practiced on Christmas and Easter were taken from the Pagans. Heck, even the dates of those holidays were taken from the Pagans. And the tradition of communion was taken from social activities of the Romans. It's funny that the most basic of Christian traditions were stolen from the people they condemn.
"In this case I think the Bible teaches that we should obey the 10
commandments to be pleasing to God, but God himself realizes that
humans, now having a sinful nature through Adam, will never be able to
live up to that standard. Since God cannot tolerate sin by his very
nature, sin must eradicated before God can be approached. In the Old
Test. Bood sacrifices were made to compensate for the sins of man
before approaching God. Ultimately, God sent Jesus to be the ultimate
sacrifice for the entire world and through him we now have access to
God, in fact Jesus says we are not adopted into the family of God."
If God was omniscient he would have known eons before Adam was ever created that he and Eve would be tempted and the humans would indulge in sin and thus never be able to live up to some standard. Thus, God must have meant for humans to sin, God must have meant for humans to die, and God must have meant for humans to suffer.
And don't forget, it's not just the blood sacrifices that please God. He also likes the smell of a burning bull.
"I agree with you to a great extent, reaching people is so much more
than preaching to them or at them. I love people, I love knowing what
they think and what they are feeling and it is that curiosity that has
yielded some of the best relationships I have. I travel quite a bit and
it is exhilerating to chat with Chinese and Japanese people who seem so
different, only to find out they battle the same fears, have many of
the same needs and desires as I. Once that is established, the
communication is automatic and there is a mutual respect for where the
other is coming from. That respect eventually leads to trust and trust
of course leads to good things. Cold calling the Gospel is probably not
an effective method of reaching out to people because it is many times
not genuine. I don't want to say it is never genuine but I would wager
to guess that mostly it is something neither the caller or callee
particularly enjoy or benefit from."
Well, at least one Christian can see it.
"Again I think there is a component of prayer and faith that few of us
ever tap into. I'm not sure if this is the time or place to share some
of the things I've experienced or not. I will say that there have been
times in my life where God has been very real and has shown himself to
me in ways that were out of the ordinary. I read somewhere that you
wrote about Christians who pray about obvious stuff and then give God
credit as if it were a miracle. I know exactly what you mean and it is
a disgrace as it assumes we are ignorant and makes God into a patsy of
sorts. However, I have had expereiences that I would say are fairly
unlikely to have happened on there own. In each instance I was however
in a situation where I was powerless to remedy or save myself."
To a person that buys a lottery ticket, winning the lottery is far more than "fairly unlikely" and it still happens. And then there are just as many people out there who don't win the lottery, and never will. Just like you had something help happen to you that was fairly unlikely, when many out there have been in similar situations and have had no help. It's all a matter of perspective on the situation.
"In my experience prayer is not easy and often before it actually
becomes effective, one arrives at a point of desparation and
helplessness. I don't know why that is, and I don't know if it has to
be that way but for me the power of prayer has only be demonstrated
when I was drained of all my alternatives. Maybe that's what faith is,
when you have nothing else to lean on."
Well, I'd say that the starving people in Africa have nothing to lean on. In fact, many of them haven't the strength to stand up or hold their head up. The world community is still troubled as to how to truly remedy this situation in any sort of timely manner. I'd say things are pretty desperate for those people right now.
"Of course man can do tons of stuff but I am referring to the spiritual
realm. I believe there is a realm beyond the 5 senses and it is there
that I mean we are powerless."
What I'm saying is that, God is supposed to be powerful in this area. Thus, it should be no problem for him to use that power for good. When asked, nothing was done. However, people found their own way to help where God did not.
"5 minutes in prayer each day is not a lot and if we continue along the
lines of my comments above, maybe not enough to come to a place of true
dependency and desperation as I mentioned above. You'll probably tell
me that the Bible doesn't say you have to exhaust your every
alternative before God will intervene, I guess I mean to say that we
need to become truely dependent. I don't understand the full dynamic
and a lot of what I believe I will admit is a leap of Faith"
I used 5 minutes as a rough number. Remember though, we had many people that agreed to pray with us. Now, say we only manged to get 100 people to pray. That's 500 minutes of prayer for one day, which is about 8.3 hours. Now, the prayer session lasted about 9 days, which is 75 hours. There are 24 hours in a day, so that's saying that if we got 100 people to pray only 5 minutes a day, we had just over 3 solid days worth of prayer built up in there (3.125 to be exact). Now, if 3 solid days worth of prayers from numerous people banded together to end the suffering and desperation of millions in Africa isn't enough, then I'd say God isn't quite so merciful as you'd all like us to believe.
"I cannot judge the quality or sincerity of your group and I assume
you were well meaning and approaching this as best you could given the
resources you had."
I can't speak for others, but I certainly was.
"I know you will I have read some of your other responses and I
appreciate your alertness. If you do someday decide to turn your life
over to God I'm sure you will have built a solid foundation and would
make great contributions. Imagine how effective you would be in helping
other seekers who are intellectually inclined. Take Care"
I can guarantee that I won't become a "man of God." I'm more than happy with my life right now. Thanks for the kind words, though.
----------------------------------------
To joshuabgood:
"This is an interesting quote coming from one who is a self avowed
atheist. Just curious by what premise/s do you determine those things
that are either good or evil?"
First of all, I'm not an atheist. I've said it many times over.
And secondly, that which is good can be figured out just from basic human decency. Heck, even in pre-modern man we have examples of this. We see that Neanderthals and Homo erectus both show signs of traveling in family packs and caring for their elderly and sick.
Common sense dictates reasons why we should follow laws. If we wantonly murdered anyone that we wished to, society itself would break down because we'd need to constantly "avenge" those that murdered are loved ones, with nothing telling us not to do so. So, we'd just have murder and death all over the place, hardly the foundation for a successful society.
And we'd have no economy whatsoever if we were allowed to steal whatever we wanted. There'd be no security for that which we had earned or held dear, and it would be an utter madhouse with no way to regulate the passage of goods. Without some sort of barter system, there is no economy, which is another integral part to a successful society.
"Sorry, I jumped to conclusions. My mistake. I will pray that in the future I will be more careful."
Yeah, don't assume anything around here. You better have a good grasp
of who you're going up against and not make any slips, because they
will not go unnoticed.
"Additionally, (sorry about the double post) prayer/meditation is not
only about "making" God do things, but actually preparing and changing
us as individuals."
Not as it's written in the Bible.
"hus as we pray and meditate on the problems in Africa we ask for God to
move us and show us how we can best use our resources to help them.
Even in the Matt. verse you quoted there is no clear link that God
mystically moves the mountain, though I believe for some prayers he in
fact may, instead God may give us the werewithal to move the mountain
through the gifts (ie shovel) that he has given us."
It does not say "Ask and you will receive the means to do it yourself." It says "Ask,
and it will be given you."
"Lastly, the Bible, like any book must be taken in context and an
exclusive "proof-texting" to make a point or counterpoint leads to a
faulty understanding of the more general themes and essential
understandings. In my humble opinion we should be careful to pray first
that God would use us to work out his will on earth as it is in heaven,
like Jesus exampled."
Don't tell me that I'm taking things out of context if you make no effort to show HOW I'm taking things out of context. It looks ridiculous and does nothing but appear to be a religious cop-out.
-----------------------------------------------
To apologetics_truth:
"This is my belief on the topic of predestination, it's kinda hard to describe in typing, but i'll do my best.
Predestination
confused the heck out of me for the longest time, and no one had really
ever taken the time to explain it to me. After looking into it on my
own, this is what i came up with---and it has to do directly with what
NeonWater posted.
God is omniscient -AND- Man has free will."
I can almost guarantee I know where this is going, because I was there at one point myself.
"What I believe is that God knows every possible choice that we could
ever make in our lifetime...from whether or not I'm going to turn to
the next page of the book im reading, to whether or not im going to go
along with my friends when the have the need to "take someone out". I
believe that God knows the consequences (positive and negative) to
every choice we make.
This is how He is omniscient....which i
personally think is a much more thorough form of knowing than
foretelling what we are going to do.....I also believe that He gives
man the free will to choose which path he is going to take.....this is
where free will comes in.
So God knows every possible choice and
outcome, but he allows us to decide which of the many choices we are
confronted with we will follow.
Lastly i believe that God knows what the ending of time will be.
Conclusion:
God starts out with a single strand which grows into an enormous spider
web of choices and outcomes, but ends once again with a single strand.
That's my theory, I'm not saying that it's right, but it's good enough to keep me sane."
Yep, I was there myself, and I realized that what you're explaining is not omniscience.
See, omniscience, means all knowing. And, you're right as far as knowing every single possible choice and outcome. But, if God does not know which path you will choose, then he does not know everything, therefore he is not omniscient. The only way he can be omniscient is if he knows every little single thing, including what path you choose to take.
So, while what you've explained may suit you in your believes, it's not omniscience on God's part. As I said before, free will and an all-knowing God are mutually exclusive.
"Really quick: I want to emphasize that conversion is not my goal here,
I'm just giving my opinion, and if you don't agree with it, im not
gonna push it on you."
That's the idea.
"That's all that i have for now.
comment back, if you wish, with any
comments/bashing/thoughts/hopes for a
better tomorrow/cheescake/etc. =o )"
Can I have the cheesecake?
-------------------------------------------
To mandalee91:
"Just because God knows what is going to happen doesn't mean we don't
have any choice in the matter. I might offer someone I know well a
choice and know which one they will pick because I know that person
well. That is a faulty analogy, but I'm just saying that foreknowledge
isn't the same as foreordainment. I admit I feel the same way sometimes
as Neon; wondering if I would have inevitably made a choice. That's one
of the paradoxes of Christianity I don't understand. and that's where I
just trust God - if I knew all the answers there would be no need for
faith. "
If God knows what choice will be made before it is made, that does indeed negate free will. Because if all of our decisions are known before they occur, that means they are predetermined to occur in that manner, and predestination negates free will.
"I realize the Bible, especially the OT is very bloody and brutal. I
just want to point out that God was not just slaughtering humans to
appease Himself. Blood sacrifices (like lambs) were necessary to pay
for sin, (until Jesus paid the price for us all - and that was not to
satisfy an angry God so much as to atone for sin so we could face a
holy God) but God never demanded human sacrifice. God is absolutely
holy, and He will punish all sin and rebellion in some way. If He
didn't He would be immoral. But to say it was wrong for Him to
annihilate all those people in the Bible is incorrect. It is wrong for
us to kill, because we did not create. But God has the right to take
anyone's life He wants; in fact He does anyway, through death."
It is a problem for God to dictate that we not kill others while he is allowed to wipe out thousands in an instant. That's a problem because if you're supposed to live a "Christ-like" life, and follow in the teachings of the Bible, you are shown through God's "perfect example" that brutal murder is acceptable when you are killing sinners. In fact, not only does God wipe out thousands of people on his own, he orders us to kill people ourselves, despite the commandment:
"If someone has a stubborn and
rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not
heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother
shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at
the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, ‘This
son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a
glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the town shall stone him
to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel
will hear, and be afraid." (Deut 21:18-21)
"If a man lies with a male as
with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be
put to death; their blood is upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)
"If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death."
"For six days, work is to be
done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to
the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death." (Exodus 35:2)
So, why does God tell us to disobey one of the commandments, a foundation of the religion?
"Actually, who is trying to disprove science with religion? They
compliment each other; one is learning to know God and the other is
learning about His world. Too many people think if you don't believe in
evolution you don't believe in science."
I've already shown where Science and religion exclude one another. Creation vs. Evolution.
"But evolution is merely an unproved theory about how the world began and so on."
Evolution is a part of science, and unless the science you're using is based on mathematical equations (like parts of physics and chemistry), it CANNOT be "proven." Evolution will NEVER be proven, only supported. If you've ever done a science fair project in your life, you would know that you are never allowed to say that you've proven a hypothesis. The more time goes on, the more support we have in favor of evolution, and the more holes we fill in. Don't kid yourself, evolution is a FACT, the only reason it's called a theory is because of people that don't understand scientific terminology, like yourself.
"For those who believe in this theory; please realize that it's not just
Bible-thumping fanaticals who believe in Creationism. There are many
renowned Creationist scientists, and many more who became Christians
based on their discoveries in the scientific world."
Creationist scientist is an oxymoron.
"You can't prove God created the world. Nor can you prove it evolved."
Again, the only reason you can't "prove" evolution is because of the rules of scientific terminology. It is a fact, it happened. We know it happened and we know it's still happening because we have the fossils to show it, and we can observe it as it's happening today.
"Science is not "pure fact" I don't understand how anyone can believe
everything they hear about evolution because things we hear change
completely as new discoveries come in. What was taught as fact 20 years
ago has been disproved. And to be honest, I couldn't believe in
evolution because I don't have the faith it would require in the face
of other, compelling explanations. Well, that's just what I believe,
and I'm not trying to push it on anyone, just share it. :)"
The reason that evolutionary theory changes is because we find new pieces to the puzzle. And yes, it is a puzzle. It's a matter of finding the pieces. The picture doesn't change, we just make the picture more clear as time goes on.
-------------------------------------------------
Man, I'm good.
| | |
|
For all you newbies around here, my replies to your comments will also be found in my comments section.
Alright, since this has been a subject with a lot of
feedback on it, we’re gonna keep the train rolling here on prayer.
Now, since this whole thing began I’ve had a lot of people
saying two things that I find to be in opposition to each other.
“Prayer does work! Mine have been answered!”
And
“Your prayer was not answered because it’s not in God’s
will! God acts according to his will.”
And this, of course, begged the question: If God acts
according to his will, then aren’t all “answered” prayers merely just a
coincidence, since they just happened to line up with God’s will and were
predetermined to happen anyways?
Let’s examine this.
Let’s say that X is God’s will, and that Y is an opposing occurrence. X
and Y are mutually exclusive.
I pray for Y: X happens.
Or
I pray that X does not happen: X happens
Now, why does this happen?
Because we’ve been told that God acts according to His will, and that we
cannot sway His will.
I pray for X: X happens.
Or
I pray that Y does not happen: X happens
Why did X happen? Not
because I prayed for it. It happened
because it was in God’s will to happen.
Now, if it’s God’s will that does everything, prayer doesn’t
work anyways, because then it’s just a coincidence that you are praying for
something to happen that has been pre-determined to happen by God’s will.
Therefore, if God’s will dictates all things that happen, prayer again does not
work as nothing will ever go against God’s will and your prayers just
coincidentally line up with his plan.
This is in contradiction to the Bible. The Bible does not
say
"For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed,
you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it might move if
God decides that it's in His plan; there will always be things that are
impossible to you."
It says
"For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed,
you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and
nothing will be impossible to you." (Matthew 17:20)
Even further than that, I’ve been told by some that prayer
is a means to find out what God’s will is.
And, if prayer is only to find out what God’s will is, then the Bible
has lied to us, as it has told us that we have the ability to move mountains
through the power of prayer, and that we will receive that which we pray for.
If prayer were only finding out God’s will, then you could just as easily find
out God’s will with no prayer at all. See, since you guys tell me that God will
not answer a prayer if it asks for something in opposition to His will, then
whatever is in his will is going to happen regardless if anyone prays
for/against it or not. So, really, we can sit back and just watch things happen
and not waste our time on prayer in the first place.
Now, what does this tell us?
It tells us that the Bible is lying to us when it says that
prayers will be answered. It is lying to
us when it says that we may move a mountain with only faith the grain of a
mustard seed.
It also tells us that prayers are not answered, because God
acts only on His will. That prayers that
were “answered” are merely just a coincidence in that they just so happened to
line up with what was pre-destined to happen according to God’s will. Prayer or no prayer, what is in God’s will is
going to happen regardless, and thus prayer is nothing more than a waste of
time. ------------------------------ And now, to finish up on the comments from my last post.
To Lonely_Monk:
"Might make a small suggestion - to keep this discussion somewhat sane,
ignore the patent answers and the attacks, I don't think they're worth
your while and it seems them bring out the worst in you. From what I've
read I think you're a pretty smart guy - but some of your responses to
the "not so analytical" are just so much bolagna."
Yeah, but at the same time, if people take the time to reply here, I'm going to take the time to reply to them. No matter how silly they may seem. At the same time, I'm the kind of person who can be both very serious and extremely off the wall. And I think replying to some of the "lesser" comments offers some well needed comic relief for some of my steady readers, and certainly for myself.
"I think you, being the thinker that you are, would admit that of all
there is to know in the universe, you probably are only aware of a
fraction. Somewhere in all that "other stuff" there may exist a God and
he might just be who he says he is."
Oh certainly, there is quite a bit out there that I don't know. And that's one of the reasons why many Christians irk me. Because many come off as completely ignorant to all of the possibilities out there. One grows mighty weary of always hearing how the Bible is absolute truth at that it's all set in stone and that there is absolutely no other way. And, that is one of the reasons why I do what I do. Because if we just subscribe to a belief without exploring all there is out in the wide world, we come off completely ignorant. I think the most important thing in life is that we question things, because that's how we progress. To question what we're told is truth. If we never questioned what we were told, we'd be crammed over in Europe still, because we would be assuming that the oceans were filled with leviathans and that we'd fall off the side of the Earth if we traveled too far. We'd still be assuming that the universe revolved around the sun.
And, for the record, while I do subscribe to the sciences, and I deny the validity of the Bible, I still do believe in a higher power.
"If you have kids I think you will also understand more the concept of
not always getting exactly what you want or ask for because it is not
to your benefit. If my kids really spend time with me and make their
desires and needs known to me, and I as a parent believe that this is
the best for my child at this given time, I will do what I can to
accomodate. On the otherhand, we all know that children are seldom
mature enough to desire what is truely the best for them at the time.
I'm not using this to explain away famine and poverty ... but rather
the personal prayer that doesn't end up getting the desired response."
Oh, certainly I understand that at times it is best to deny something to a child on the grounds that it's not good for them. But as I've said many times, for a being that is truly omniscient, God would have known eons before their births that these millions of people would be born only to suffer and die tragically. And, in a sense that means that God created them specifically to die. And it's for that reason why I don't believe in a truly omniscient higher power.
"I don't mean that I agree with everything you say but I think you are
right on in this analysis and that it unfortunately applies to many
many Christians. It is the reason I have told you now over and over
that I appreciate you bringing up this subject and being willing to
confront us. We need the challenge and you deserve a "decent" response.
My response to you was of course not exhaustive and I am not claiming
to have all the answers. I do however agree with you, a spade is a
spade and it folks can't take it, then don't participate. A brief read
through your previous posts says a lot about your way of communicating
- hence I see no excuse for someone to get offended or upset if they
choose to comment. Besides, as I said to someone who commented on your
site, I think you like to provoke and shock ... and some of your
readers seem to take the bait hook line and sinker which in my
mind reveals a certain degree superificality in their convictions and
beliefs, which you so well point out."
I'm so glad that you can see these things. It seems that recently, some of the truer Christians have been coming out. The ones that actually do follow the teachings of understanding and tolerance. You may not agree with me, and I may not agree with you, but I think it's important that we respect each other and remain civil despite the on-going debates we have. I think it's been seen, that I will be civil to those who approach me in a civil manner. And I can be equally scathing to those who insult me or leave me messages of damnation. The Golden Rule, as I'm sure you know. Thank you for doing the former.
"I am a Christian, I grew up in a religious Christian home and I know
all the pet answers and responses. I have also traveled the world over
the past 15 years and have seen that in order for Christianity to be
relevant, God must be way bigger and have many more applications than
we in US Christiantiy can dream of. We have to be ready to give answers
to our beliefs not only to folks here like yourself, but also to the
tribal people of Africa who have no altars and cathedrals as well as
the most remote jungle dwellers of Papa Neu Ginea. If the Gospel is
going to be relevant then we Christians have got to peel the proverbial
onion way back and get to the core. All the window dressing is just
that and has no significance for what ails the world. And as a matter
of fact I think the world is ailing in part due to our complacency and
lack of willingness to get out there and sacrifice something. We are
many times as much idol worshipers of our lifestyles, our businesses,
our families and our security. Most Christians live in a cocoon of
sorts, and I include myself."
Personally, I was born, baptised and raised Catholic. In fact, to this day my own sister insists that I'm Catholic, despite the many times I've told her that I don't believe in the things she does.
I think that the most important part of being a person of faith, one that preaches the words of Christ, is that you uphold the teachings of tolerance and understanding, of being a generally good person all around. The problem, again, that many have with those of the Christian faith is that they are neither understanding, nor tolerant. So many try to push their beliefs off as the only way, and make no bones about telling everyone that their way of life is wrong, rather than trying to get to know them as people, and being tolerant of their decisions. Missionary trips are a prime example of this. We can learn so much more if we approach others with the intent to understand than with the intent to convert/save. And that's how we fill in the voids in our understanding of this massive universe of ours.
"We need people like you and your friends to shake us up! I think God
may be using you to wake up some folks, you certainly woke me up. Let's
continue to challenge one another from our, in many ways diametrically
opposed, yet very common, points of view." Again, I have to say thank you for your approach to this whole thing. I look forward to more posts from you. And from your other post:
"1. "faith as a mustard seed" in Mathew is Jesus teaching the disciples
about faith's power - not, as you seem to interpret, a proclamation
that one hardly needs any faith at all to move mountains. Rather I
would submit that faith is so powerful that when one truely has tapped
into it, it can move mountains in fact ... both abstract mountains such
as obstacles in ones own life and maybe even physical ones."
Well, we had the benefit of having people of all faiths participating. And I would say that out of all the people involved in the prayer that there had to be a few in there that were pretty strong in their faith. So, if prayer is powerful enough to move a mountain why has nothing been done. Yes, Jesus is teaching about the power of prayer, saying it's basically the ultimate power we have. Yet it sure seems that it did nothing. And if he meant that such things can only be done if we are truly hooked into faith such as many would say Moses was, then why would he word it in a way that makes it come off as saying "Even a man of the smallest faith has the power to move mountains with prayer." I would venture that the Son of God should know better than to word things in a sense that could create confusing for the religion that is to be built around him. And God, being omniscient would have forseen this confusing long long ago.
"Faith is not a push-button activity ... it is gained through trust and
relationship. Much like any human relationship where you might place
your trust in a friend or family member, as opposed to a stranger. God
desires a relationship with us and his promises are based on the
quality and depth of that relationship."
Again, which is why we reached out to many different people, including Christians to join in with the prayer. So that the people who say they've really developed the relationship and the ones that say that prayer really does work and that they've experienced it would have a hand in it as well.
"3. Faith is powerful, but without Faith works are dead and you/we can do nothing."
Well, mankind can do plenty. We've seen in the past that we don't need faith or prayer to make a change or to do something supremely good. Live Aid '85 is a supreme example of that.
"4. I would challenge you to consider that maybe you did not
actually posess the faith spoken of in the Bible but rather were likely
expecting hunger in Africa to continue unchanged, despite your prayers.
One might even speculate that you looked forward to posting on xanga
that you were right all along and the Bible and God are humbug."
Though I'm sure I can't proof it to you without a reasonable doubt, I will say that I tried my best to be open minded about this. Even when I was describing it to many people that know me very well, they were shocked to hear the words coming out of my mouth. When I told them flat out "If it works, I'll be the first to stand up and proclaim to the world that I was wrong all along. That I was ignorant and blind. And that's a price that I will pay if it means millions of people are saved from suffering and death. I will gladly swallow my pride for that. If it doesn't work, we've lost nothing but perhaps 5 minutes we spent on prayer each day."
"5. Based on the assumptions above a viable hypothesis is that you and
your friends, albeit you spent time in prayer, you did not actually
test the power of faith or the reliability of God, but rather proved
the postulate that works without faith is dead."
Again, I'm certain we had quite a bit more than the required mustard seed's worth of faith, considering the scores of people we reached out to and asked to join in on this. And again, I must reiterate that if God truly could ignore such a supremely good call coming from a multitude of voices that put aside their differences and banded together, then he's not quite as benevolent as everyone makes him out to be.
"Keep asking the hard questions, I, and many like me, will be happy to respond as best we can."
And I'll be more than happy to provide more. =)
--------------------------------- To circleoffive:
"i have a few questions for you:"
Alrighty.
"first, what qualifies you to define what is a good prayer?"
What qualifies YOU to define what is a good prayer? Is there really any way to define what is actually a "good" prayer other than the fact that it's one done honestly and humbly beseeching a higher power? Considering my own ideas behind prayer, I had to have humbled myself in order to actually pray. You may ask those I've prayed with, or asked to join in the prayer. And, I honestly did wish to help in any way possible. Again, ask others if my intentions of aiding others was true or not. Or even further, look at the fact that I'm looking into charities to donate to, and discussing possible donations with others.
"you say you prayed for the people in Africa to stop suffering. a noble
request. however, remember that suffering is a result of fallen man.
we live in a fallen world; that's why there is suffering here."
Of course, as per your beliefs that's why they're suffering. At the same time, a large portion of those that are suffering are innocent people. While many that do evil are sitting pretty in power. Is this just? So, why is it wrong to wish to aid those that did nothing wrong?
"God is not a puppet for you to jerk his strings to get him to do what you want him to do. He's God, for crying out loud."
Don't tell that to me. Mark it down in your Bible in the many verses describing how all prayers will be answered. How we will be able to move a mountain if we pray for it.
"the fact that he did not end the suffering does not make him uncaring
and insensitive; it means he knows better than you do. (does this
surprise you?)"
Ignoring the prayers of scores of people putting aside their beliefs and banding together for the common good, to aid millions of innocent suffering people and thus better mankind as a whole is indeed an insensitive thing to do. We hear constantly that "God knows better." Really? What is the purpose of making innocents suffer while letting the people causing trouble sit high in their thrones? God, being all knowing must surely know how badly this makes him look to the people down here on earth who are experiencing it first hand. Try telling a person who's so malnourished that they can't even hold up their head that the reason they're starving is because a merciful and benevolent God knows what's best and see how far that gets you.
"Also, you said you had Satanists and Wiccans to pray this prayer with
you. Keeping in mind that sin separates us from God, do you expect
that the prayer of a man worshiping Satan would hold weight with a God
who hates sin?"
First of all, you show your ignorance to other religions. Quite frankly, the handful of Wiccans I've met are nicer and more spiritual than 80% of the Christians I've come into contact with. I can't recall a Wiccan ever telling me that I'm ignorant and that I'm going to burn for refusing to subscribe to their beliefs. And, for the record, being a Satanist does not mean you worship Satan. There are two types of Satanism, one that embraces indulgences and living life to it's fullest. This faction of Satanism does not even believe in a deity such as Satan because Satan is a product of Christianity. Thus, if you deny the validity of Christianity, you negate Satan's existence, and you cannot worship that which you do not believe exists. The other type of Satanism does indeed believe there to be a being such as Satan, and pays homage to him. However, you mustn't assume that all Satanists think and act in the same way, and that all worship Satan, because it only serves to show your own ignorance. And to damn a certain people based on your own misunderstandings of their faith is truly ignorant.
And, furthermore, if we can get people of different faiths to put aside their differences and look to the common good, why can't God, who is supposedly better than all of us, who is supposedly benevolent and merciful do the same? Why can't he be as understanding and tolerant of different beliefs and the greater good in people as we all were?
"i'm curious what your true purpose was in getting these people to pray
with you. it sounds to me like you're mocking God and daring him to do
what you ask of him. It doesn't work that way."
A little bit skeptical of people, aren't you? Is it such a stretch to believe that so many people could get behind one cause? Just because we're not of your faith does not mean we are uncaring. And, again, we're just following what we're told in the Bible. Though, we didn't ask to move a mountain, we asked to end a famine.
"you're a human, he is God;"
I don't recall there being any confusion over this point. =P
"maybe you should stop being so full of yourself in thinking that you know the answers to things. sometimes things cannot be answered with our human minds. "
I don't assume that I have all the answers to everything. But I'm sure as heck willing to question the things we've been told as a means of trying to find the truth. To do anything less is just plain lazy and ignorant.
"for the record, i don't believe that God will answer a prayer for
worldwide (or even just African) suffering to end: i repeat, we live in
a fallen world, and sin must be paid for, be it the sufferer's sin, or
another's. "
How horrible is it to make innocent people suffer for the sins of those sitting on thrones living lavish lives? Certainly, that's not justice at all. Again, try explaining this to the people who are suffering, and if they even have the strength left to do so, I'm sure they'll laugh in your face.
"i don't think you're bottom line is whether prayer works or not. you
can't argue that until you've taken care of root issues. you don't
believe in the Bible. you don't trust God to be or do what he says he
is or will do. you say you have faith the size of a mustard seed?
then where is your faith in the inspired Word of God, and where is your
faith that God is in control of the world, and where is your faith that
God loves you? "
I have plenty of faith in God. I believe that he exists, and I believe he watches over all of us. I also KNOW just as you do, that the Bible was written by man. And I know man is fallible and open to corruption, which is why I turn away from the Bible, because there is no way to know which parts, if any, were the word of God and which were the words of greedy, power hungry early men.
Now, since I don't cling to the Bible as proof of God's existence, and still believe in the existence of God, with literally no proof or support whatsoever, one could say that I have even more faith than you do.
"one final question: what is your name? why do you not have it on your
site? no reason behind the question, i just want to know."
My name is on my site.
Name: A language unit by which a person or thing is known.
I am known by the name Sausage Mahoney, as should be evident by the posts made speaking to me directly in which people call me Sausage or some derivation of the name Sausage.
--------------------------------------
To Yea_mon:
"I dont know what to say except that i'll pray for u i think u need to read and study ur bible more"
I think you need to first of all get away from chat-speak. If you're too lazy to add two letters and type "you" instead of "u" and "your" instead of "ur" then I would say you're exhibiting sloth.
And don't tell me that I need to study my Bible if you're not even going to try and tell me a single thing I have taken out of context. You just look silly.
----------------------------------------
To missomegagrace:
"Poor man. I'll pray for you."
This is quite obviously meant to be taken in an insulting/instigative manner. In addition to the fact that you deem me to be in some way inferior to yourself through the use of "Poor man."
Congratulations, you're a HypoChristian.
---------------------------------------------
To Grampa_David:
"At your personal request, I'm retyping below the private message I sent
you in response to your post on the ineffectiveness of prayer. First of
all, I want you to know that although you and I profoundly disagree on
a number of important matters, I have a lot of respect for you and I
commend you for I think you are genuinely searching for the truth!"
Thank you very much for accepting my request to post this personally. While I do enjoy getting personal messages, when it's something that has to do with the topic of discussion on my site, I like to have it public so that it may be open for perusal by anyone who reads. Words of wisdom do no good if nobody hears them. That sort of thing.
And again, thank you for the kind words and for your civil approach. These things are greatly appreciated, and I will return the favor.
"But your concept of God is very simplistic and self-centered. To gather
together a number of people of different beliefs and agree to spend
some time "praying" that God would perform YOUR WILL, and that if He
didn't you would either declare Him non-existent or uncaring is totally
unreasonable. God is NOT OBLIGATED to perform like a puppet for a
skeptic or any other human being!"
Well, to be fair, I neither think that God is non-existent, nor do I believe he is uncaring. In all honesty, I just don't believe the Bible to be truth. I don't believe God answers prayers at all. As others have said here, I use precise wording to provoke people into not just replying, but into thinking about their convictions. If someone tells me that God answers prayers, and that the Bible is truth, I bring up the experiment and the passages of the Bible, and question why if God answers all prayers did he not answer that one as specified by the Bible. In subscribing to the ideas presented in the Bible, it seems to me that the reason God didn't answer the prayer is because he is uncaring.
As for myself, I just don't believe in the Bible and I don't believe that any prayers are answered, because life is a test of character, and if we can get the answers, we'll never find them for ourselves and progress as intelligent beings.
"Man's suffering was brought about by man, and it is man's
responsibility to relieve that suffering, whether it is HIV/Aids or
starvation or anything else. And there is enough suffering to keep all
of us busy for the rest of our lives"
God's supposed omniscience would have made it abundantly clear eons prior to our creation that man would sin. He would have known eons prior to it's happening that he would toss 250 men and their families into a pit to hell. He would have known eons before it happened that he would flood the earth because of man's sin. He would have known long beforehand that he would have to kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden. He would have seen all of this ahead of time and still gone through with his plans knowing that he would be wiping out thousands upon thousands of people in the book of Numbers alone. And this tells me that he created scores of people for the sole purpose of killing them, because he would have known long before their creation that he would have to kill them.
And as such, he knew long ago that somewhere down the line millions of innocent people would suffer senselessly. And he created them for the sole purpose of suffering.
"Yes Christ said that if we have faith as a grain of mustard seed we
shall say to this mountain, etcetera. God gives faith. God leads us in
how to pray. I am quite sure that Christ was speaking as He did to
illustrate a point. He did not literally mean we could see literal
mountains raised up and cast into the sea. Nor did He literally mean
that by banding together in prayer we could end a nationwide famine at
a specific moment! What Christ did mean, however, was that the prayer
of faith was a mighty force for bringing about change to situations
here on the earth!"
Well, if he meant that prayer was a mighty force for bringing about change to situations here on the earth, would not the end of a famine be a changed situation on earth brought forth by a mighty force? What is the point of using a language illustrating how powerful prayer if, if it's just an exaggeration? What is the purpose of saying "You can move this mountain with prayer" if you can't actually move the mountain with prayer? It's just a means to inspire that generation to believe in his teachings and only serves to confound them later on.
"In another place, Christ told His followers that "If your eye offend
you, pluck it out," for it is better to enter heaven with only one eye
than with two eyes to be cast into hell. Likewise He told them that if
their hand were to cause them to sin, cut it off and cast it away. Now
Christ did not mean that His followers should be poking out their eyes
or cutting off their hands. He was using a dramatic means of driving
home a vital spiritual point, by employing a vivid illustration they
could not forget."
Well, of course Christ didn't want his followers to pluck out their eyes, since you cannot approach the altar of God with a defect in your site. Lev. 21:20.
The message here is to purge yourself of that which causes you to sin. And that's loud and clear. Just as with the passages of prayer it is loud and clear that we can use prayer to change the world, only when actually put into practice it doesn't seem to work.
"Yes, famine is terrible, and sad to say it has largely been brought
about by the greed of human beings who have exploited the needy people
of other continents. Of course we should pray that God will relieve the
hungry, starving peoples of the earth. But we need to give our prayers
"hands and feet" as thousands of Christian missionaries and other
relief workers have been doing for generations. And we need to
influence our democratically elected governments to do our will in
bringing relief to the needy, not just of our land but of lands across
the seas!"
So, if we're having to do the busy work ourselves in actually aiding these people, you're admitting that prayer alone will do no such thing as moving a mountain, and thus the Bible conveys a lie about the power of prayer.
Now, this is not to say that I do not wish to aid them, again I'm looking into ways in which I can offer my aid.
"Christian doctors and nurses, as well as some wonderful secular medical
people, have been bringing healing to the sick in Africa, India, Asia,
Mexico and other areas for many years. Many, many sick and needy folk
have received healing of body, soul and spirit through such efforts.
Gospel For Asia trains local people to work as pastors and missionaries
in many villages in India. These dear folk have quite limited education
and travel from village to village either on foot or by simple bicycle.
God has amazingly blessed their honest efforts in many instances by
healing certain sick people spontaneously in answer to their simple
prayers."
If it was in God's will that these people would be healed, as it must have been for them to no longer be sick as nothing goes against God's will, then the prayer did no good, as God's will had already determined that they would not remain sick.
"I know that God does answer prayer today, because He has answered a
number of my prayers, and of course the prayers of the GFA native
missionaries!"
Miracle or coincidence? That is the question.
"In closing, for now, I want to tell you of a story I was once told.
Apparently a skeptic who did not believe in God told some people that
he would prove once and for all that there was no God. Then he
commenced to "pray" saying, "O God, if You really exist, strike me dead
immediately!" Of course nothing happened, and the skeptic scoffed to
his friends, "You see, there is no God. If there were a God, I would be
dead right now!" Poor fellow, what he did not realize was that God is
under no obligation to dance to the skeptic's tune! The prayer was
frivolous, "prayed" by someone who didn't even believe in the object of
his prayer. It was not a devout prayer by a Godfearing man with a real
reverance for Almighty God. God will not answer that prayer. And the
skeptic could be thankful that his prayer was not answered! In
fairness, I do not know for certain the authenticity of this anecdote,
but I believe there have been many who have prayed that prayer and with
the same outcome."
Well, it would be downright silly to ask a supposedly benevolent and merciful God to kill someone to prove his existence, despite the many occasions of him murdering thousands of people who spoke out against him in the Bible. What we did here was try to appeal to his mercy in asking that millions of innocents be spared. Still, to no avail. This, however, does not say that God is non-existent. It just reaffirms my assertion that prayers are not answered.
And, from your other post on here:
"A couple of you skeptics are so scathing in your remarks that I think
it is a real pity. And I would like to make a further point: Just
because you do not believe that the Bible is the divinely inspired Word
of Almighty God, and just because you believe that God (if He even
exists) does not answer the humble prayers of His people, does not mean
that your scoffing opinions about God, the Bible, and prayer are true."
And just because you believe that the Bible is the divinely inspired Word of Almighty God, and just because you believe that God does answer the prayers of His people, does not mean that your supportive stance on God, the Bible and prayer are true.
"THINK ABOUT IT! If you are wrong, then you are in deep trouble unless
you turn to God in true repentance and confession of your sin of
unbelief! He longs to save your soul which, unless you repent, is
doomed to a terrible judgment in an eternity without God. I am NOT
scoffing at you. Far from it! I'm only a sinner (maybe much worse than
you), but I've been saved by the grace of God, not because of any good
that I have done!"
Pascal's Wager is a horrible basis for convincing someone to believe in God and the Bible. Basically, you're telling people that they need to believe based on laws of probability. And even further, based on the assumption that God is intolerant of those who are good people, but just follow a different lifestyle. What it basically amounts to is a threat: "Believe or burn for eternity."
-------------------------------------
To puttincomputers:
"well time to bite my pride apologize as well!"
These are always fun to read. =P
"i didnt mean to say that we should not try to save the kids but that we
should. But if we reach them and then they turn away from God not only
are they in trouble but we are as well if we offended them!"
Trying to reach them by telling them that they need to believe in Jesus and that their ways are wrong is a surefire way to offend them and get nothing done. Offering aid to help them set up a nation is a way to help them and do a good deed.
"You raise a good point on the moving of mountains and i agree with you
to a point. But if we think that moving a certain mountain is what we
should do and its not God's will we should not say God does not exist!
Rather we should say that there is another path that we should take."
I didn't say God doesn't exist. I believe He just doesn't answer any prayers, period.
"I don't know if you know much about paul but he wanted to go into
Northern Asia (what is now known as Northern Turkey) but God told him
to go somewhere else! Now do think that because Paul decided to follow
God's will instead of his own he was wimp! btw i used to be in the
world and of it as well! But God answered a bunch of prayers in my
life!"
It would seem to me that God was impeding upon the free will that he gave to mankind with that one. =O
--------------------------------------
To happy_heart1
".... I can appreciate your desire to understand the Bible--particularly
the power of prayer. You wonder if prayer really does work....? It
does. I have experienced it countless times in my own life"
Again, was it prayer that worked, or was it a coincidence? Was it just that God's will was already in place and your prayer just coincided with that? Reread the main part of this post get back to me on that.
"The thing to remember, however, is that prayer is not some kind of
magic formula that, when combined with faith, will yield the exact
results we want. Prayer is a channel of communication to the
Father...and faith isn't just about achieving what I demand needs to
be done, it's about leaning on Christ, surrending to Him and trusting
HIM to get things done...in whatever time and way He sees fit. We know
how we think God should move....but faith is
accepting that maybe my way isn't the best way....it's recognizing God
as God--one whose ways are far higher and better than mine."
This all, of course is in contradiction to us being told that we receive that which we pray for, even if that prayer is to move a mountain. Ask and we receive. Knock and we will be answered. All that good stuff.
And, in the line of saying that "faith is accepting maybe my way isn't the best way" can't that also be applied to religion as a whole? As accepting that maybe your way (Christianity) isn't the best way, the be all-end all absolute truth?
"I encourage you to study Heb. 11, and seek to know God despite your
misgivings about who He is...this is the only guaranteed way to find
answers that will put your spirit at peace."
I've studied the Bible. But I find that I learn more about the religion itself from the people who claim to follow it. ;)
"in the meantime.... thank you for expressing your views and for searching."
And thanks for the comment.
---------------------------------------------
Yes, boys and girls, you've reached the end. For those of you that have been around here for a while, it looks like the massive amounts of scrolling have returned. =P
| | |
| For all you newbies around here, my replies to your comments will also be found in my comments section.
Alright, as you all know, the last post was examining the promises of prayers. To make it short, the Bible says over and over again that all prayers will be answered. And many of the Christians out there are quick to say how God answers their prayers and will answer any directed at them.
So, it was decided that we should take a look at this. After examining multiple passages from the Bible promising that prayers would be answered (these can be viewed in the previous post), myself and some others banded together in prayer. We prayed/wished/hoped/whatever you want to call it. That God would end the horrific famine in Africa by Friday, February 23rd, 2007. Obviously, God being an all powerful deity, this would be child's play for him. A snap of his fingers, really. And, it did not benefit any of us directly, but rather mankind itself, and all the innocent people suffering in Africa from this famine. We had Christians, Satanists, Wiccans, and many others join in on this prayer, a true indication of how people of differing ideals can bond together for a common good. Still, it would seem the prayers were not answered.
This, leads us to 2 possible conclusions:
1) Prayer does not work. No prayers are answered, it is by mere coincidence that things we have prayed for come to pass. And saying that prayers are answered is a fallacy created by the men who wrote the Bible as a means to inspire faith.
2) God chose not to answer this prayer, in contradiction to all the promises in the Bible saying prayers will be answered.
Obviously, for any people who actually believe in God, it would be in their best interest to believe the first option. As we can build onto the second option that God chose to not answer this prayer either because he thinks the innocent people in Africa deserve to suffer, or because he will not listen to a supremely good prayer just because not everyone behind it was "a believer." This of course, leads us to the assertion that God is not only an intolerant jerk, but a liar, since the Bible says prayers will be answered, that all we need is "faith as a grain of mustard seed" (Matthew 17:20).
These are the two conclusions we have. I myself, have always believed in the first option.
However, since God will not step in to help those suffering, I will begin looking into charities that I may donate to in order to help those suffering.
So, for anyone that reads this and wants to say that I'm a bad person for not being a "believer," I'm doing more to help the situation than God did. 
For those of you who can't read:
You all keep telling me that "Sometimes God answers prayers with a 'No.'
Now, apparently, I didn't explain myself quite good enough with this post here, so I'm going to say it in terms that you can understand.
This is in contradiction to the Bible. The Bible does not say
"For
truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you
will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it might move
if God decides that it's in His plan; there will always be things that
are impossible to you."
It says
"For truly, I say to you, if
you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this
mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will
be impossible to you." (Matthew 17:20)
So, everyone one of you that sits there and tells me that God sometimes answers 'No' or that everything he does is in his will, you obviously aren't well acquainted with your Bible.
And, regardless, it would be pretty awful of God to let millions of people suffer and die, despite this completely selfless prayer, just because it's "His will." You're telling me that he won't help these people because he wants to see these innocents die. You are doing nothing more than hurting your own case by saying that your God is not a loving, caring, benevolent being, but and intolerant tyrant.
----------------------------------
Now, to finish up some business from the last post:
To A39587164995846777
"Off subject: First, Ender's Game was a really good book, along with the sequels."
Darn right.
"On Subject: I can do the misquoting thing later, for now I will deal with the current."
Take this however you want, but I find it to be ridiculous to say "I could do that, but I won't right now." It is my conviction that a statement of this nature is a cop-out. In the same manner that I feel making a post to say "I don't have time to reply to this right now" is a wasted comment. If you don't have the time or the will to reply to something, don't reply, it's just wasting space.
"I was praying for both, for living water and for literal water"
Ah, my mistake. I was under the impression that you were only praying for them to find Jesus, which you believed would in turn lead them away from the famine. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
"I didn't think, I wondered, I only voiced it to see if it needed to
turn into thinking. For the record, I'm going to South Africa and as
weird as it seems, do you want to help me out. I really ddon't think
you would, but it was worth a try. I'm really desperate and the trip is
$4500 :("
If I knew more of your motives, I might be more apt to help you. However, I will not fund a missionary trip. I'm not going to give my money to people who will just go tell these poor suffering souls that they need to find Jesus. This is not saying that this is what you will be doing, I'm just expressing my belief in that particular area.
Regardless, I have a close personal friend who is trying to organize a trip there (in fact, he was the first person I convinced to pray with me on this whole thing), and if money permits, I may get a chance to go as well. If I can't foot my own bill, I will immediately aid him in his quest, and seeing as how I know him personally and I know his motivations, he would likely be the first to receive whatever aid I can give.
"First, God was talking to Moses only, He can do whatever He feels like.
His face was hidden in a glory cloud, whatever that consists of, lol.
It doesn't say He showed him His face, but that they talked face to
face. So Moses didn't really see God, but look into it however you want
to, that stuff isn't a faith-shaker."
It would seem to me, that if he is speaking to him "face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." It would not be proper to hide oneself. As I don't believe friends hide themselves from one another. So, this in turn brings up another issue within the Bible. This is a minor example, but it still shows how there is exaggeration in the Bible. Regardless, hidden behind a glory cloud or not, he still would have seen the figure of God, and it still says that no man sees God and lives. Still seems to be a contradiction to me.
And, even further than that, if the Bible is God's word, as transcribed by man, shouldn't God have had a much firmer grasp on how he might dictate this so that confusions such as this do not arise at all?
"Whoever said that Jesus didn't say all three? Fainting spells are
common among victims of major blood loss. That argument isn't
air-tight, but this next one might be better. This is what the
disciples probably would have heard all together."
Ah, that's good to rest on. Probably. The PROBABLY heard all of these things at once. The way I see it, there isn't too much room for a "probably" in faith. If there's any part of your religious conviction that has to resort to a "probably" due to differing stories, something tells me the faith itself isn't as rock solid as everyone would like to make it out to be.
"All 3 weren't standing right there when it happened, only John was"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice,
saying, 'Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?' that is to say, 'My God, my God,
why hast thou forsaken me?'....Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice
said , 'Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:' (notice the cry
with a loud voice is separated from Jesus commending His spirit,
probably quieter), then he said softly, 'It is finished:' and
he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." Now, all 3 would be correct
in the fact that he gave up His spirit after that quote, just not RIGHT
after it happened. Matthew's second cry was Luke's quote and John
probably heard his very very last words very quietly, him being
driectly at the foot of the cross."
These guys were his disciples. They followed him around and listened to his teachings, so they were obviously familiar. Yet they couldn't even confer with one another to get their story straight? In addition to that, what is the purpose of telling the same story 3 differing, contrasting ways in the book? Why was it, if he said 2 of those things in loud voices, it was not added to all three stories. If it was spoken loudly, all three would have heard it. The only thing that could have only been heard by one person would be the quote from John. For a guy who supposedly had all these followers hanging on his every words, why is there such controversy over what would have more than likely been the most interesting thing he ever said, the words he spoke on his deathbed?
"These are men that didn't write everything that Jesus ever did or said because they didn't have to."
Why wouldn't they write down every single account of the supposed son of God. He seems like a pretty important person to me. Anna Nicole Smith was a B-list celebrity at best, and look at all the media surrounding her. The son of God can't get that sort of attention?
"Jesus made Himself lesser than God even thought He was equal. He was a
powerhouse in the self-inflicted form of a bondservant. That's kind of
like the argument of, "can God make you do something?" The answer is
yes He can, but He chooses of His own power not to. It's still His and
our choice."
Ah, so he really was equal to God, he just made two conflicting quotes on the matter so he could confuse everyone, right? For a man who was supposedly the son of God, he sure made a big slip up there. I mean, I would imagine that's a pretty big one right there. Whether Jesus is the son of God, or God himself seems like far too important of an issue to be making frivolous contradicting comments such as this.
"Since He was shown 3 different things, I believe He was taken 3
different places. The mountain is one place (to probably show the local
area), the kingdoms of the world is another, and the glory of them is a
different one from all three. It does not say that Satan "then while on
the mountain showed him the world" it says "and" followed by a second
"and"."
To me, it comes off as being taken up to the mountain and being shown the glory of all the kingdoms of the world from said mountain. How does one show somebody a place, and then later show them the glory of it? Don't you see the glory of the place as you are looking at it? Is this some sort of silly lighting effect? You can only see the glory of a place while facing the sun at 3:38 in the afternoon? No, it seems to me that this is just another example of the fallability of man incarnating itself in a supposedly holy writing. And again, seeing as how you claim the Bible to be the word of God, as written by man, you'd think God and his omniscience would have forseen this and prevented this sort of confusing wording.
"Because Ender's Game doesn't claim to be the Way, the Truth, and the
Life. If it did, then I would laugh rather heartily. You don't see it
the way it is supposed to, which is arguable, but you should try it
sometime. Your belief shapes your respect for the workmanship."
Ah, so the only reason that the Bible is real and Ender's Game isn't is because the Bible says it's real. Quite frankly, I think that's downright ignorant. I mean, right now I could say that I'm God. You ask me why I say that and I reply "Because I am." It's ridiculous. There's no proof to it being real other than the fact that you THINK it's real. The only difference between the Bible and Ender's Game is that Orson Scott Card actually admitted that Ender's Game was fiction.
"...and about all the Old Testament quotes quoted: You don't know the
motice behind the people. The evil intentions that they had were not
written. You can't judge God based on what He did unless you know
exactly what the other person did and how they did it for what reason.
The contradictions in your point of view come naturally. These books
were written in times when the people readin them probably underdstood
them in a completely different way than we do."
And again, what you fail to take into account is that you all also tell me flat out that God is omniscient. He knows what is, what has been, and what will be. With that being said, he knew ages before these people came into being that he would be murdering 100,000+ of them. So, when you look at that, it tells us that God created hundreds of thousands of people knowing full well that he would brutally murder them. God created these people so that he may destroy them. That's horribly twisted.
"our language structure is way different and we read things totally
different. Have you ever looked at ancient language lexicons and
grammar structures? They can be totally opposite than ours, take Hebrew
for example. Those books were not written for us directly, but
indirectly. That's why I don't claim otherwise. They were written to
ancient people using ancient languages that they understood. People can
add whatever they want to make it look like whatever they want. It
doesn't mean they are right. I don't claim anyone who participated in
any of those attrocities. This book is so profound to humans that for
example, you and I have a completely different way of looking and
interpreting it."
And again, God, being all knowing should have seen this far ahead of time and being all powerful would have been able to ensure that people did not twist the book that was supposedly his word. This is what you have to accept. That either God is omniscient and murderous. Or that God is just as surprised by these events as we are and has to take action along the way. It's the same thing with Noah's Ark. If God is truly omniscient then he knew even before Adam and Eve that the world he was creating would later be destroyed by him in a giant flood. Therefore, he created mankind to destroy it.
"This book is so profound to humans that for example, you and I have a
completely different way of looking and interpreting it. No other book
can do that."
I don't know, I've had some pretty heavy discussions on the works of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. =)
"I don't even know how Muslims can even claim jihad isn't in their
religion and that it is a religion of peace. Have they even READ the
Qur'an?! It's pretty easy to see they're wrong."
I'm going to go ahead and leave this open for IceMaiden.
"You can now, Jesus paid the ultimate sacrifice so that we could come
before God spotless, but not of our own accord. Only on the account of
Jesus' sacrifice."
Why would God ever make a rule that says someone with a defect in their site can't approach the altar of the Lord. That seems rather discriminatory towards those with health issues. In fact, one might even take that a step further, and point out that discriminations such as this against those with "undesirable qualities" is the foundation for Hitler's Aryan race.
"Wicked people have no excuse when God comes a-knockin. It's only by
grace that we all haven't been utterly wiped out. Again, those people
could have been entirely wicked, and then God had all rights to do so.
I won't hold back the fact that He seemed rather peeved at the
Israelites, but we just don't know the entire situation."
Again, it brings up the issue that God, being omniscient created these people for the purpose of murdering them. And again, being omniscient, God would have forseen ahead of time that in a story such as this, he comes off as a complete jerk in his own holy book. It looks like just another piece of evidence lending the bible being written by early man, who didn't comprehend how this book would be read thousands of years later.
"Last time I checked, He didn't lie, don't even bring up the tree in the garden thing,"
Well, in case you were looking for a fresh example, he didn't answer this recent prayer of ours, despite the promises in the Bible that he would. There you go. God's a liar.
"He kills in the name of justice (and the thing i mentioned before),"
The Bible says "Thou Shalt Not Kill." It never says it's okay in the name of justice (one man's justice is another's terrorism). It just says Thou Shalt Not Kill, period. So, this says God is above his own laws? Shouldn't he be setting an example of kindness for his followers? In reality, by doing this killing and saying it's okay, that's what led to the horrors of the Crusades, the Witch Trials, the Inquisition, etc. Because those killings were done in the name of God, thusly they must have been for justice, right? You see how God, not abiding by his own rules and viciously murdering hundreds of thousands of people sets up these atrocities to come, something he should have seen, being omniscient?
"and adultery? Have you been reading into the DaVinci Code a little too
much? Or is it the Mary of Joseph and Mary, because she was betrothed
(engaged), not married. They didn't have sex before marriage back then,
How I wish those days would return...You might have to give me more
specific examples of those last 4 to answer them properly."
Ah, so it's okay for a woman to sleep around as long as she's only betrothed, not married? That's the way it's coming off now. It's okay for God to impregnate another man's betrothed, because he's God and he can do whatever he wants, right? He can violate the bonds of their love because he's God, right?
"Then what do you stand on? Humanity's self empowered will is too flawed to come up with a reasonable answer to everything."
This is the very reason that religion itself is created. To explain the unexplained because mankind fears what it does not know. All throughout history, you will find accounts of stories of creation, explanations for weather, natural disasters, etc because these were things that early man did not know the cause of, and thusly, he was frightened of that which he did not know. So he made stories, that could comfort him by filling the voids that were out of reach of his knowledge. That is exactly where religion sprouted from. And to be perfectly honest, that may be the only reason I still cling to the idea of a God and an afterlife, because I don't know what comes after death and hope with all of my heart that the end is not truly the end. Because it's comforting to hear at someone's funeral that they have gone to a better place and will live in happiness with all of their loved ones that have already passed.
And there you have it, religion was conceived as a means to explain the unknown and provided comfort. It's just a shame that some people are so caught up in their primitive stories that they refuse to acknowledge the breakthroughs of science.
"Just look what happened with scientific reasoning of the Big Bang and
Evolution (Totally don't go there right this second, that will be a
page and a half of writing each comment)"
I've been over that stuff in the past. I'm not worried about bringing it back up. In fact, it was when I went circles around Bethany's father on the subject of evolution that he told me I had the IQ of a rhesus monkey and that I was a psychological disturbed individual. I guess some people just can't handle the truth.
"If you want the contextual proof of misquoting, then send me a list and
what you think they refer to. Message me, don't post it, we can do that
later."
I've got all the quotes posted on here, and more than likely there will be more in the future. I've made it known in the past that anything pertaining to the discussions on here gets posted publicly. I never delete anything. All posts and comments stay here, so everything can be looked up later. If you're that convinced that I'm taking things out of context, I trust you'll find the motivation to go back through the posts to find them.
"I'd like to know more about your own personal beliefs, because I sure
think I could take a good swing on them. I like offensive just as much
as defense and it seems like we're always on the defense."
Since my beliefs stem both from my own creation and the mountains of proof to be found in the scientific world, I guarantee you cannot phase me. And, here is a major reason why:
“A man’s faith should not have to be defended, for if it is his
faith and his belief, then it can not be lost. The only time faith
needs defending is when that man begins to lose his faith and must
defend it to preserve his own belief in it.”
I've often thought of making a post detailing my beliefs, and the code by which I life my life. It might still be in the cards for the future. But, since I don't have millions of people following behind me in my beliefs, it's really a major concern for debate.
"What religion were you raised in? I get a faint feeling of ex-Christian
or Catholic more likely, mixed in with modern day thinking about
Christendom."
I was raised Catholic, and there are some in my family that still insist that I am no matter how many times I tell them that I'm a big boy and can make my own life decisions (my sister).
"What book or tradition do you adhere to?"
Aside from my belief in the Big Bang and Evolution, which is well documented in the scientific community, the honor system by which I adhere to is not written. It's in my mind, and to be perfectly honest, I don't know that I could even list everything which I adhere to. I just know, when the time arrives what road to take. It's like when you have to train someone new to do your job, and there are so many little things that you do each day that you can't even think of off the bat to train the new person.
Again, though, this may show up in a future post on here.
"Does it have historical proof better than the Bible, because the Bible's packin heat when it comes to historicity."
I'd say fossils and artifacts dating back millions of years is packing a lot of historical heat too. =)
"I happen to think I'm doing a rather good job of this, I don't know
what everyone else thinks. I really like the questions and the
challenges put to me. If other people can't answer them, then they need
to do some serious thinking. I'm kinda sad that I'm the "most
intelligent Christian" that you've met (legivorden's quote right?).
Like I was telling Him earlier, it'd be cool if we could meet some day
and discuss them in full-length instead of piece-meal."
Personally, I think you're doing as well as you can be doing, for someone who has complete faith in the Bible, which I view to be a flawed piece of writing. And the fact that you've actually hung in here with us, and have been able to go back and forth without insulting us or telling us we're going to hell gives me some respect for you, despite what I may think of your beliefs.
"You've got a good heart, saus, I just think you should take a look from where I'm sitting, I'm no average Christian."
Well, I think having a good heart and being a good person are all I need in life. If I can be a good person all my life, and still end up burning in hell just because I don't believe in the Bible, well then I think God's the one that needs to get his priorities straight, not me.
"Sadly my brothers and sisters fall short of coming close to fulfilling
what God wants for them and it leaves a bad taste in others' mouths."
Drink Ski. It tastes delicious. Literally the best soda ever made. It will get rid of the bad taste. =P
--------------------------------
To Follower_of_Christ
"Sorry, I wasn't able to keep up with this topic. As you probably know,
I've been sick since Friday...and haven't been around much."
Well, at the very least it's good to know that you're back in good health now.
"Looks like it has been an interesting discussion,"
They generally are. =P
"but I haven't really the time to go back and read all these posts. My job is too demanding to give me such a luxury."
I often wonder where I find the time. I generally average 6 or 7 days at work a week, between 50 and 60 hours a week. But then, I remember that I'm just an all around amazing individual, and I don't have to wonder how I manage to fit it all in.
"From what I can tell, Mike usually takes the words out of my mouth
anyway, so I will do a terrible thing and assume that he spoke rightly
in this conversation; I would not want to repeat all of his posts for
you to read. "
Alrighty, well feel free to drop in and leave your opinions any time.
------------------------
To PPhilip:
"Ah materialism so prevelent in the Judeo-Christian world, probably the
root of all its problems. Giving food to the starving will assage your
guilt? So terribly wrong!!
Dumping our mechano- harvested wheat
and corn onto the poor countries destroys the livelyhood of indigent
local farmers. The solution is to help them establish their own farms
and sustainable crops so that they will not be dependent on handouts.
Hiv
and Aids has robbed the african nations some of their adult and
educated leaders. Civil wars and senseless feuds has established a
cynicism, a ruling by strength type mentality. Are UN occupation or OA
mediated peace a solution needed? Right now a new fragile Liberia is
starting out, should we help nurture that country's restoration with
measured help?
Basically non-Christian solutions like OPrah's
girls schools may be a wise use of philanthropy. Most wise advisors are
not listened to and political motivations have political shortcomings."
I'm not quite sure where all of this came from. If you think we're going to send money, food, whatever to these people so that they can get by with the help of others or what. This, first and foremost, was a prayer to God, hoping that he would do what he had promised and answer a prayer for ultimate good.
And, for the record, what exactly the money is used for is something I will be looking into while researching a charity to donate to. Other than that, the rest of this comment seems to be you lost in your own musings, to be blunt.
"Prayer and meditations are intimately entwined. The solution involves
gathering all the possible answers, weighing all the answers and not
being inflexible into realizing that the solution can be something that
was unimaginable before you even began to pray or meditate upon the
subject. A wise or smart man can understand the problem before he even
attempts to try to solve a problem but the foolish, the gullible and
the ignorant are easily made to go down the wrong path for a solution."
However, if you talk to those of the Christian faith, there is only one answer. And that is faith in God. Therefore, the answer to the famine in Africa must be found in God. That's where the prayer test came into play. And that's where we showed that all prayers are not answered as promised.
And yes, I would say that those who pray on a regular basis for the problems to be solved are indeed the gullible, foolish, and ignorant whom you say go down the wrong path for a solution.
"And I will go back to materialism. By seeking the pleasures and luxury
of this material life, this is what makes many people blind to true
contentment, true happiness and true source in which to persue for
answers. "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth." Maybe Bill Gates or Oprah can buy their way into heaven? But it will
take thousands of hands to implement major changes that this world
needs, this world needs change and this world needs to stop being
greedy and so materialistic and so indolent with seeking the pleasures
of this earth..."
Thus, while I have more money than I know what to do with, I rarely ever purchase anything for myself.
"Pretend scenarios and semantics often lead people off track to the true truth."
Ah, pretend scenarios, like those in the Bible.
"Yes in some ways the Friday challenge is an attempt to harness the
omnipotent powers, surely part of the faith incorporates beliefs and
experiences and any factual facts that can be gathered into
accomplishing any feat. It also covers what love you have for those
starving, what possible sacrifices you are willing to give up in order
to achieve that wish/miracle/experiment and willingness to assent to
the sacrifices that comes with responsibilites of power."
As the Bible tells us we have the ability to reach out to the omnipotent deity, we are following in it's teaching. This will provides us with something tangible to look back on in regards to the subject of prayer. And I'm willing to make donations to those suffering from the famine, as I've already pointed out.
"I am wary of instant promises, if you buy into it, be advised that the
law of Karma, where everything is interconnected will have
repercussions elsewhere."
It was not an instant promise. We had more than a week for the prayer to be answered. And, I believe Karma is part of Buddhism, not Christianity which is the religion we are discussing right now. So, Karma does not have any bearing in the examination of prayer that we did.
"If anything whoever, whatever listens to your beseeching prayers also
has the right not to perform whatever you pray for, If you arrogantly
expect to be answered, I pity you for even attempting to order things
around just because you wish it."
I don't expect prayers to be answered. In fact, I don't believe prayers are answered. So, I did not arrogantly expect it to be answered. It was the Christian bible that said our prayers would be answered.
"What evidence do we have that this experiment failed or succeeded?"
Well, it's some pretty easy to spot evidence. There's still famine, so obviously prayer failed. If famine would have been eliminated, then prayer would have succeeded.
"Do we have to detail what actual prayer time was involved? What is
quality prayer? On what grounds can those who judge this experiment be
qualified to even judge this event?"
Well, based on what the Bible, says, we need only faith the grain of a mustard seed and any prayer will be answered. I don't recall seeing anything saying we need to devote X hours to prayer to get a result of Y magnitude. Or that we have to use proper wording in anything that might make a "quality prayer." And I believe anyone who watches the news is qualified to judge the outcome of whether or not famine is still prevalent.
-----------------------
Yeah, I'm back. I know you all missed me.
| | |
| Alright, a short (maybe) detour from the failure known as RobertLeeRE.
Not long ago, on snake_freak29's site, Follower_of_Christ_23 made this statement:
"For, we know as Christians that no matter the size of the problem, God can answer any prayer."
Now, this got me thinking. Does God truly answer prayers, or are the so-called answered prayers really just coincidences? So, in that vein, let's have a little test.
Let's examine this right now. Let us pick one completely unselfish
thing, and pray that it come to pass. Perhaps we pray for God to
eliminate a horrific disease, such as AIDS or cancer, tomorrow perhaps?
Perhaps we could pray to end famine. To allow all children the
opportunity to get an education. For all families to afford to feed
themselves. Let's pray for this to happen tomorrow perhaps. Maybe we'll
give him some time and say by the end of this week. Certainly, we want
all the needless suffering of innocent people to end as swiftly as
possible, right? So, let's say that we ask God to end the famine in
Africa by next Friday. I'll pass the word to everyone I know, and you
can pass the word to everyone you know, and we'll all pray for this in
completely sincerity.
And, we know, in Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:
"Ask,
and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will
be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks
finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if
his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a
fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to
give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is
in heaven give good things to those who ask him!"
So, surely,
anything we ask of God, especially this entirely non-selfish wish to
help the innocent people be relieved of their suffering, should be
answered.
In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:
For truly, I say to
you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this
mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will
be impossible to you.
Now, I do actually believe there is a God.
And I do believe that he has the power to do great things, should he so
choose to do so. Surely that would count to be at least the faith of a
mustard seed. My town itself is very heavily Catholic. You (Follower_of_Christ_23) seem to
portray yourself as rather faithful, and surely you have some good
Christian buddies to ask this of as well. So, I think we've got a good
amount of faith going here, this should not be denied, right?
The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:
"I
tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been
doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to
the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son
may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name,
and I will do it."
We see the same thing over and over again...
In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:
Again
I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it
will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three
are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
In James 5:15-16 the Bible says:
And
the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord
will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore
confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may
be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
In Mark 9:23:
All things are possible to him who believes.
In Luke 1:37:
For with God nothing will be impossible.
Nothing
could be simpler or clearer than Jesus' promises about prayer in the
Bible. So, let us pray that famine in Africa be put to an end by next
Friday (February 23rd, 2007), and on that day we shall see if our prayers have been answered,
as promised over and over by Jesus.
Now, for many of you out there, I know you may be opposed to prayer, or be of different beliefs. And to that I will say this.
Generally, I am the first to tell you that prayer does not work. But, even I am doing this. Because it is for a greater good.
There are 2 possible outcomes to this (I will not go into the likelihoods of each):
1) Nothing happens. We've gained nothing, and lost nothing for it. The point has been made that prayer does not help, but aside from that we have neither gained nor lost any ground in life.
2) All famine in Africa is eradicated by next Friday and I'm proven wrong. Big deal. Millions of people are no longer starving. The greater good has prevailed, and I'll be the first to say I was wrong.
Yes, I know it's pretty weird for Sausage Mahoney to be requesting that you pray, but I assure you it's for the greater good. Something much bigger than just you and I, which is why I was able to swallow my pride and do it, in addition to reaching out to others and requesting that they take part as well.
We'll see the outcome next Friday.
Massive props to GodIsImaginary.com for the inspiration (and much of the thought) behind this post.
Update 2/15/07:
Some additions by Misanthropy420 and Fantasma_della_morta
From fantasma_della_morte:
"Alright I've read this whole thing thus far and sausage is right.
Hell from the times I went to church and followed Christianity as a
young kid we would pray every sunday about these sorts of things.
During Desert Storm we would pray for the troops fighting the war etc.
All of which had never come to pass. Soldiers still died, AIDs still
spread, nations still fell. I know this prayer will not work simply
based on the fact that I've seen these types of prayers, and any prayer
for that matter not be asnwered. Still to see christians who go to
church every week and bow there heads in prayer saying it will not work
is sad. I'm seeing lack of faith not only in the religion, but in the
people themselves.
Seems to me going to church being told to bow in prayer is a common
routine, nothing more. Makes you feel like you are worshipping and
participating in your faith. Everone under one roof believing in the
same faith is a powerful thing in any religion. However, the Bible is
written, it is documentation of the supposed events that took place
during the lives of Moses, Jesus, and many other important figures. And
here on this site when asked to test your faith, you make up excuses to
why it won't work. Thats what Christianity is for the most part. A
faith you never have to prove, and when asked to illude, persuade,
dodge, and make excuses for why things are written one way in the Bible
but won't work when put to the test I have no faith in prayer, therefor I know to make a prayer to a God I
have no faith in, let alone believe in would be pointless. I'm versed
enough in the Bible to know that. However, because this is a good
cause, and as Legivorden said, their are other ways I can go about
offering my support in my own beliefs. Meditation, energy work and
rituals as well. I will use my own form of prayer and spirtual guidance
to Gods I do believe in and have faith in to lend my hand in this great
cause. Some of you say your Christian God has never let you down, but
you say here if you pray for this he will not answer, that would be
ignoring your prayer, that would be letting you down. My Gods have
never let me down, never ignored me, but at the same time I do not have
the belief that if I ask I will recieve. That concept was foolish, even
for Jesus to say. It is selfish to ask for and expect. Unlike
Christianity, I can only hope for. It is hope after all that keeps any
faith alive, not prayer."
And from Misanthropy420:
"I can't believe how opposed to this all the Christians are. They say
that they know God will answer any prayers, and now they're telling us
that this prayer will never work and they refuse to take part in it.
It
tells us that they either don't believe that all their prayers are
answered, or that they aren't humanitarian enough to pray for the well
being of others. There is no other option, and they may deny it all
they want, but that's where it stands. Saying, "For, we know as
Christians that no matter the size of the problem, God can answer any
prayer" and telling us repeatedly how God has answered all of their
prayers, but then fighting this proposition tooth and nail is
ridiculous.
And, the way I see it, there is no problem with people of different
beliefs offering their support. Surely, they believe God is aware of
all actions and prayer, no matter who they are directed at. As as
Sausage said, based on the errors of the Bible, and the lack of solid
proof, and the fact that literally every Christian tells us it's a leap
of faith, it should be completely understandable that there are other
beliefs and factions out there. It may not be to His liking, but as
benevolent deity, whose son taught us about the power of compassion and
understanding, surely someone in His position could understand where
there is room for doubt. And surely, being the benevolent overseer that
he is, if enough voices cry out against this travesty, no matter who
those voices are directed at, the inherent good in him would compel him
to take action. I believe if he has a problem with an ultimately good
prayer just because of who it's coming from or who it's directed at,
then he's not exactly the benevolent God you make him out to be, but in
fact a rather intolerant one."
-------------------
Thanks for the input, guys. Keep it coming.
| | |
| First, a little excerpt from my "Currently Listening" section:
Fear me you lords and lady preachers
I descend upon your Earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine
The seven seas of Rhye
Alright, as my readers (and my adversaries) may know all too well, I get quite a chuckle out of finding hypocrisy in those that consider themselves to be the messengers of God. And lately, I've gotten one hell of a chuckle. And I think it's about time to share that with everyone. I'm doing it here because first of all, I'm sure it's gonna get seen (this person has visited numerous times), and I have yet to block or delete a single comment on my site. Whereas this person has had me blocked for who knows how long now. I've yet to even make a single post! I guess he's already scared of having me show him up on his own site.
Well, for the big reveal, that person is RobertLeeRE
This absolute joke of a man, actually preaches his religion for a living. And not even Mr. RobertLeeRE himself can keep from being an absolute waste of oxygen. He wallows in his own hypocrisy, ignorance, and self-worship. His entire site is him prophesizing and basically trying to show everyone how intelligent he is. It would seem, outwardly, that RobertLeeRE believes that we're all damned. Clearly, such a wise man must be the one to enlighten and save us, right? Wrong. To put it bluntly, RobertLeeRE is an overly self-assured, judgmental jackass.
Let's take a look at some of the wrongdoing that RobertLeeRE has commited on the site of another, Imparting_Wisdom
Myself and Legivorden confront him with some rather simple questions that one might consider when looking at Christianity. Namely how Christianity swiped many holidays from the Pagans.
His first statement that was called into question was:
""Christ was born at a time in which all of the pagan religions were
also recieving through pagan false prophets the prophetic message of a
soon to be birth of a king, a messiah, that would do something great."
Obviously, when presented with such a statement, I felt it to be the proper thing to do point out how he speaks ill of the Pagan religions, saying how they were presenting falsehoods and whatnot, there are many portions of Christianity built upon parts of Pagan religions.
Obviously, this was just far too much for RobertLeeRE to handle. Even a man in his position proves that he is an absolute failure, as he begins to judge and insult not only Legivorden and myself, but those faithful to the Pagan religions as well. If I'm not mistaken, as per his own religion, the judgements are supposed to be left up to God and God alone. And insults are a big no-no.
Thusly, his calling us ignorant:
"You people speak of things you are completely ignorant of. "
"What really amazes me is how ignorant nonchristians are to world history."
His calling the Pagans animals:
"Maybe you prefer eating bugs and living in dirt like the pagans do, like the animals they are."
His essentially telling me that I will burn in hell:
"You know God will only allow you to reject him so many times and then
he will call you to stand before him, to stand trial. The bible says
there is a way that man sees that seems right but isn't and is the
broad way, not the narrow path, it is the road to the lake of fire."
His calling us losers:
"If you guys hate christianity sooo bade why don't you move to the countries you claim you love soo much you losers!"
His insults and judgments against those who swear (A subject which I have already covered):
"People who swear are too uneducated to think of a word, the proper word
to be used. So they walk around with poop coming out of their mouths
when ever they open them. "
Or perhaps even his judgements of Eric Clapton (an amazing guitarist I might add):
http://www.xanga.com/RobertLeeRE/550524389/an-e-mail-to-eric-clapton-and-the-sermons-i-sent-him.html
All of these would seem to be in opposition to the beliefs that he claims to follow, and furthermore is supposed to be preaching to others. RobertLeeRE is so busy judging others, that he has allowed himself to become a bastion of hypocrisy. I believe that RobertLeeRE needs to spend less time insulting and judging others, and more time examining what RobertLeeRE actually believes to be the true way. RobertLeeRE can profess his beliefs as much as he wishes, but in the actions he has committed against myself and others, he only serves to show his own ignorance and hypocrisy.
Myself, since I'm not bound by the same beliefs as him, rather by my own code of honor, I am allowed to bring forth this message of judgment. The message of how much of a failure RobertLeeRE is.
So, here's where it lies now.
RobertLeeRE, atone for your actions against myself and others. Either apologize for your insults and judgments, which are in opposition to the teachings you supposedly follow, or renounce your faith, because you obviously care not about adhering to it's message.
Update 2/5/07
RobertLeeRE, being the coward that he is, still refuses to confront me on my own site. However, he is still confronting me on Imparting_Wisdom's site. In addition to these confrontations, he's still choosing to act against the teachings of his religion and insult me, even after being called out about it here (which he has visited).
He starts off his long-winded tirade with:
"My statement to you, loser "
And later calls me ignorant yet again (irony right there, folks)
"You are a very ignorant person"
Calls me a creep (and I don't even follow Satan. =P):
"Your a creep because you follow Satan."
Obviously, this is still not the kind of thing someone in his position should be doing, and despite being called out on it, he still hasn't learned. What a shame.
In addition to that, RobertLeeRE, is such a dirty coward, that he has now added xanga lock
to his site, in addition to blocking me. What this means, is that one
must be signed in to view his site, and since many of us are blocked
while signed in, this means that we cannot view his site.
Of course, this can be very simply remedied with a secondary account. =P | | |
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